Pulling the trigger before racking a round.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I'll have to join the "never heard of it" and "that's news to me" group. But, it's interesting, and I'll give it some thought and perhaps change my ways.....

[M-Tecs]

That was taught on 1911 bulleye guns. It prevented the hammer from following down from the slide impact. Mostly used when closing the slide on an empty chamber. The hammer following down could damage the sear.

[Kawriverrat]

Mostly used when closing the slide on an empty chamber.

I find it very surprising the amount of people that have never heard of this regarding the 1911.

Especially 1911's that have a worked over trigger. However it is a simple thing to release the slide with the thumb of the right hand while grasping the slide with the left so it doesn't slam home with out the cushion of stripping a cartridge from the magazine.

[44MAG#1]

I am probably the most stupid person on here but I dont let my slide slam forward when there are no cartridges in the magazine.
If the slide is locked back I take out the magazine pull backward on the slide slightly, the slide release drops down and I hold my slide and easily let it go forward easily.
Pretty stupid right?

[RGrosz]

I've heard of it for target 1911s.

When I was shooting on a USAR Bullseye pistol team, we were told that when you got ready t shoot there was a precise way to load and fire the 1911.
1 Insert the mag into the gun
2 Rotate the non shooting hand up till the thumb was holding the hammer down
3 Use the pointer finger to move the slide release down, allowing the slide to go forward
4 move the pointer finger up to a position between the hammer and the slide
5 let up the presser with the thumb on the hammer till it's resting on the sear
6 get your good grip and prepare the shot

I've used that method to fire my 1911 since then
Rob

[kgb]

This procedure for 1911s always causes cries of horror when brought up. Once past the shock, affected individuals can read through Bill Wilson's book The Combat Auto to see where he describes the process. I don't think he addresses the use of it on target/bullseye guns but I haven't reviewed it in a while. It does look to me to violate some rule of trigger safety/discipline, and is more for the preservation of the firearm, no matter what one decides the gun should still be pointed safely when closing the slide on anything.

[JBinMN]

This procedure for 1911s always causes cries of horror when brought up. Once past the shock, affected individuals can read through Bill Wilson's book The Combat Auto to see where he describes the process. I don't think he addresses the use of it on target/bullseye guns but I haven't reviewed it in a while. It does look to me to violate some rule of trigger safety/discipline, and is more for the preservation of the firearm, no matter what one decides the gun should still be pointed safely when closing the slide on anything.

Thanks for mentioning that book!


Free .PDF file of this book for anyone who would like to read it online or save to their computer for later:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/wilsoncomba...ombat-auto.pdf

A quote from the book, on pages 38-39:

The proper sequence for loading
a 1911 pistol begins with
keeping the gun downrange,
cock the hammer, retract the
slide and lock it back. Then
insert a magazine.
Next, with the magazine in
and keeping the muzzle
downrange, pull the trigger back
and then drop the slide
with the slide release button.

The quote is in italics and is accompanied by pictures showing the process as well...

[dverna]

JBinMN,

Thanks for posting this information.

[Omega]

Thanks for mentioning that book!


Free .PDF file of this book for anyone who would like to read it online or save to their computer for later:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/wilsoncomba...ombat-auto.pdf

A quote from the book, on pages 38-39:

The proper sequence for loading
a 1911 pistol begins with
keeping the gun downrange,
cock the hammer, retract the
slide and lock it back. Then
insert a magazine.
Next, with the magazine in
and keeping the muzzle
downrange, pull the trigger back
and then drop the slide
with the slide release button.

The quote is in italics and is accompanied by pictures showing the process as well...

Well now, that makes much more sense. I understood it as pulling the trigger before racking the slide back. Thanks for the link, will add it to my reading list.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Seems to me, upon reflection, that even if we're talking about bullseye tuned 1911s only a pistol which has a hammer that might follow the slide down is an unsafe pistol.

Having used the 1911 almost all my life, owning a dozen of them, and having built a number of them, I'm having a little trouble wrapping my mind around the mechanical damage aspect of this. First, other than cocking the hammer, the slide only interacts with the interrupter which prevents rearward movement of the trigger. It has a nub on the top that when the slide is closed moves up into a slot on the bottom of the slide and lets the trigger move rearward. When the gun fires the slide moves rearward and depresses the interrupter, and the little paddle on the bottom of the interrupter part then presses against and blocks the rear of the trigger bow. True, the interrupter is held in place by the same pin that also holds the sear in place, but the two parts are independent of each other on the pin and do not interact. So the slide slamming forward can not itself do damage to the sear/hammer relationship, and I think that is a legend. If the slamming forward of the slide caused the hammer to fall, we're back to my first statement.

If you are restricting the scope of the conversation to a finely tuned target gun, and are willing to live with it's questionable safety condition, then by all means follow the procedure you consider the best for safety's sake. But this procedure is absurd for a combat/duty weapon, is at least one additional step in recharging the weapon, and time = lives. I don't believe this is what John Browning had in mind when he designed the pistol. I'm sure that all present have seen, handled, fired finely turned duty/combat 1911s that are subjected to monthly qualification sessions and which suffer no ill effects from skipping the pre-trigger pull step, which in fact is not practiced at all by field professionals. Of much more importance to maintaining a good trigger pull once attained is propely hardened parts. It should also be noted that 1911s, like any mechanical devices, will wear with use, and proper periodic maintenance is important.

How could the proposed pre-trigger pull procedure possible apply to a double action/safe action? Noooooo........ don't do it.

[Walkingwolf]

Does anybody know Jeff Cooper's rules of handgun safety? One of those rules directly relates to this notion.

[35remington]

“Disconnector” is the term to use.

[str8wal]

I am probably the most stupid person on here but I dont let my slide slam forward when there are no cartridges in the magazine.
If the slide is locked back I take out the magazine pull backward on the slide slightly, the slide release drops down and I hold my slide and easily let it go forward easily.
Pretty stupid right?

I guess we both are pretty stupid then, ha

[Biggfoot44]

Yes, on 1911 pattern guns , dropping the slide puts stress on the sear . Yes on finely tuned( aka very light) triggers with shallow sear engagement , this is somthing to be concerned with . These are triggers with " zero creep, breaks like glass rod " .

For stock configuration, or most fire controls considered suitable for Duty or "street" use , will have enough engagement surface to be of much less concern .

Don't obsessive drop your slide just for entertainment, but with my guns I don't sweat over the dropping of the slide in normal use . Your Mileage, and degree of extreme caution may vary .

[Dan Cash]

When I was shooting on a USAR Bullseye pistol team, we were told that when you got ready t shoot there was a precise way to load and fire the 1911.
1 Insert the mag into the gun
2 Rotate the non shooting hand up till the thumb was holding the hammer down
3 Use the pointer finger to move the slide release down, allowing the slide to go forward
4 move the pointer finger up to a position between the hammer and the slide
5 let up the presser with the thumb on the hammer till it's resting on the sear
6 get your good grip and prepare the shot

I've used that method to fire my 1911 since then
Rob

This and other methods offered for releasing the m1911 slide while holding the hammer make me scratch my head regarding what pattern pistol was being used. The hammer is pretty well tucked up under the slide between the slide rails so holding on to it while releasing the slide seems a hazzardous and impractical. The above lteps seem to require 11 opposable thumbs to achieve.

[dverna]

This and other methods offered for releasing the m1911 slide while holding the hammer make me scratch my head regarding what pattern pistol was being used. The hammer is pretty well tucked up under the slide between the slide rails so holding on to it while releasing the slide seems a hazzardous and impractical. The above lteps seem to require 11 opposable thumbs to achieve.

The procedure as described in Wilsons book and posted by JBinMN addresses an easy way to accomplish the goal.

It seems to take care of the sear issue as well as vastly minimizing the chance of a pistol going full auto as the disconnector is engaged when the trigger is depressed.

I have sent an email to Glock and have not heard back from them.

[Char-Gar]

Seems to me, upon reflection, that even if we're talking about bullseye tuned 1911s only a pistol which has a hammer that might follow the slide down is an unsafe pistol.

Having used the 1911 almost all my life, owning a dozen of them, and having built a number of them, I'm having a little trouble wrapping my mind around the mechanical damage aspect of this. First, other than cocking the hammer, the slide only interacts with the interrupter which prevents rearward movement of the trigger. It has a nub on the top that when the slide is closed moves up into a slot on the bottom of the slide and lets the trigger move rearward. When the gun fires the slide moves rearward and depresses the interrupter, and the little paddle on the bottom of the interrupter part then presses against and blocks the rear of the trigger bow. True, the interrupter is held in place by the same pin that also holds the sear in place, but the two parts are independent of each other on the pin and do not interact. So the slide slamming forward can not itself do damage to the sear/hammer relationship, and I think that is a legend. If the slamming forward of the slide caused the hammer to fall, we're back to my first statement.

If you are restricting the scope of the conversation to a finely tuned target gun, and are willing to live with it's questionable safety condition, then by all means follow the procedure you consider the best for safety's sake. But this procedure is absurd for a combat/duty weapon, is at least one additional step in recharging the weapon, and time = lives. I don't believe this is what John Browning had in mind when he designed the pistol. I'm sure that all present have seen, handled, fired finely turned duty/combat 1911s that are subjected to monthly qualification sessions and which suffer no ill effects from skipping the pre-trigger pull step, which in fact is not practiced at all by field professionals. Of much more importance to maintaining a good trigger pull once attained is propely hardened parts. It should also be noted that 1911s, like any mechanical devices, will wear with use, and proper periodic maintenance is important.

How could the proposed pre-trigger pull procedure possible apply to a double action/safe action? Noooooo........ don't do it.

And I give a big AMEN to that!!

[RJM52]

I can only speak to 1911's, but in order not to batter your sear and to maintain your good and expensive trigger job, you have two choices. Hold the hammer back when you let the slide go forward or hold the trigger back. Both methods accomplish the same task. As someone else said, holding the trigger back is the same as what happens every shot you take.
Phil

I was told the exact same thing by two 1911 smiths...especially if you have one of those Bullseye quality 3# trigger pulls and want to keep it for as long as possible...

Bob

[Walkingwolf]

I was told the exact same thing by two 1911 smiths...especially if you have one of those Bullseye quality 3# trigger pulls and want to keep it for as long as possible...

Bob

The disconector disengages the sear whether the trigger is pulled or not. The hammer WILL catch on the sear even if the trigger is pulled, or it should, that is it's purpose. So I see it as a dangerous practice of putting the booger hook on the bang switch when not engaging a target. Your choice but I prefer to follow Mr. Cooper's safety rules they have served me well, no ND's.

[RichardB]

MY 1911 use has always been LE/Combat and defensive in nature. So any training with them is done with that in mind. Knowing that fine motor skills go almost completely to hell under stress, using the slide stop to release the slide is a poor practice. It was designed as a slide stop, not a slide release, no matter how many places like to modify them as a trick piece. The best way to release the slide is by racking it with your support hand. Under other conditions your belt, edge of cover, etc can also do the trick.

Practice for when SHTF and you won't be left bumbling or worse, lying in the gutter.

If all you do is shoot paper be my guest but someday you might not have paper to engage.

RB