MIHEC Elmer Keith Tribute 1928-2018 90 Years Ideal 429421 429422 "Exact Copy"

[longbow]

I've got no particular interest in the Keith boolits but have seen this discussion, and sometimes arguments, about what is a true Keith style boolit and whether Lyman or H&G is it.

According to the "history" here:

http://www.hensleygibbs.com/casting/history.jpg

Hensley and Gibbs didn't meet until 1933 and H&G moulds weren't produced until 1941. Just when the H&G #503 came about I don't know.

According to the Ideal Moulds Handbook 1929 the 429421 was available in 1929 (page 90):

https://www.castbulletassoc.org/down...20-%201929.pdf

So, it looks as though the 429421 preceded the H&G #503 by quite a few years. That is if the above info is accurate. That Elmer designed the H&G #503 may also be true making them both original Keith designs. Why would the H&G #503 be different? Improvement from lessons learned or just different for a different mould maker? Who knows?

I know when Dale53 sent me pics of his boolits from his original H&G #503 so I could model the boolit for Miha he was bent on an original Keith design and that was the boolit he wanted. Likely both are in fact original Keith designs and a guy just has to pick what he likes.

The version of the 429421 in the Ideal 1929 handbook appears to have very sharp lube grooves that could be 90 degrees or at least very close.

A mould/boolit I have not ever heard or read anything about is the 429422 right beside the 429421. Makes one wonder why Elmer would design 240 gr. and 235 gr. boolits of near identical design with only 5 grs. difference in weight.

FWIW

Longbow

[megasupermagnum]

I've got no particular interest in the Keith boolits but have seen this discussion, and sometimes arguments, about what is a true Keith style boolit and whether Lyman or H&G is it.

According to the "history" here:

http://www.hensleygibbs.com/casting/history.jpg

Hensley and Gibbs didn't meet until 1933 and H&G moulds weren't produced until 1941. Just when the H&G #503 came about I don't know.

According to the Ideal Moulds Handbook 1929 the 429421 was available in 1929 (page 90):

https://www.castbulletassoc.org/down...20-%201929.pdf

So, it looks as though the 429421 preceded the H&G #503 by quite a few years. That is if the above info is accurate. That Elmer designed the H&G #503 may also be true making them both original Keith designs. Why would the H&G #503 be different? Improvement from lessons learned or just different for a different mould maker? Who knows?

I know when Dale53 sent me pics of his boolits from his original H&G #503 so I could model the boolit for Miha he was bent on an original Keith design and that was the boolit he wanted. Likely both are in fact original Keith designs and a guy just has to pick what he likes.

The version of the 429421 in the Ideal 1929 handbook appears to have very sharp lube grooves that could be 90 degrees or at least very close.

A mould/boolit I have not ever heard or read anything about is the 429422 right beside the 429421. Makes one wonder why Elmer would design 240 gr. and 235 gr. boolits of near identical design with only 5 grs. difference in weight.

FWIW

Longbow

If I'm not mistaken, the 429422 is the same as the 429421, except with a hollow base (or possibly a hollow point). I was just reading about that in Sixguns, apparently hollow base were thought to be more inherently accurate back then.

[Nueces]

My old Ideal 429422 is indeed a hollow base version of the solid 429421. The hollow point version of the 358429 was at first called the 358439 and the hollow base version was called the 358431, but the hollow point 429421 was not given a separate number.

[longbow]

Well there you go! A guy can learn something every day! And here I thought the 429422 was somewhat different in form not just HB. I wondered why 5 grs. lighter for the "same" boolit.

Not sure if it is the case here but my understanding is that at least some of the HB boolits came into being when outside lubed boolits were replaced with inside lubed GG boolits. Like .44 used to be .44 with outside lubed heeled boolits but boolits were shrunk in diameter to 0.429 to fit inside the brass so the HB allowed them to be used in the same gun with HB swelling up to fill the bore. Same with .38 which used to be 0.375" until boolits were shrunk to fit into the brass.

[Hardcast]

I went to that group buy thread and looked at the photo of that boolit posted at the end of the thread. That is not a true Keith design as the base band is noticeably longer than the middle or front bands. In looking at my mold inventory, I found a new unused Lee 6 cavity copy of the 358429. As Lee does not catalog this mold, it must have been from a group buy back we we were using Lee. In spite of having this one, I would still be interested in one of Miha's brass 6 cavity molds if it were a real Keith bullet (long nose, 173 grains and 3 equal length driving bands), as his molds are obviously superior quality over Lees.

I just reran the 358429 last year.
Message Miha he may have an extra.

[Forrest r]

FWIW:

The early "Keith" molds lyman put out had equal drive bands that flat out sucked!!! The bullets had small drive bands and a huge lube groove. Lube back then wasn't the greatest & large quantities of it was needed. 429422 bullets cast from an early lyman mold, the lube groove is bigger than the drive bands.
[IMG][/IMG]

Same bullet used in tests for a ca bulldog that had a hp put in them with a forster hp tool (top left).
[IMG][/IMG]

Side view of the same (top left) bullet above.
[IMG][/IMG]

I've had early copies of the 429421 molds with equal drive bands. They didn't perform very well, the 429422 flat out out performed them. Don't know if that's why keith wrote about things like this or not???
[IMG][/IMG]

Years back I had an excellent conversation with a fellow member on this website on the "keith/429421/lube grooves). He sent me this picture.
[IMG][/IMG]

His findings mirrored mine. When it came to hot loads the:
The round lube groove bullets were best
The hb square lube groove bullets were 2nd
The small square lube grooves didn't do very well (3rd) with loads over 25,000psi

Mihec's version of the 503 clone does a lot better than the original lyman's. But then again the Mihec's has .100" drive bands and the lyman has .085" drive bands.

Anyway, when you find a lyman mold with equal drive bands they are typically small.