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Thread: MIHEC Elmer Keith Tribute 1928-2018 90 Years Ideal 429421 429422 "Exact Copy"

  1. #21
    I'm A Honcho! Wasalmonslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Highland Drifter View Post
    If the H&G molds were true to Elmer's designs this series should be cloning the H&G molds, and not the Lyman.

    Good idea.

    H&G 51 = 38 Spec/357 Mag design
    H&G 503 = 44 Special/Mag design

    I have both designs and both shoot better than most operators can!
    I consistently get better groups across the board in my guns at many level of power with the H&G designs but your mileage may vary....

  2. #22
    Boolit Master Highland Drifter's Avatar
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    I have an interest in the 258 along with 51 and 503. I gave my nephew an unfired S&W pre lock 657. What's better to feed it for general purpose up there in Idaho?

  3. #23
    I'm A Honcho! Wasalmonslayer's Avatar
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    The 258 mold would be a great bullet for that gun.
    If you wanted to explode vermin the 258 mold in a hp would be a dandy!
    You could not do wrong with the 41 mag and the 258 bullet.
    The only thing that might give a little more accuracy would be the Mp design by 45 2.1 in the 640 nose profile.

  4. #24
    Boolit Man hollow-point's Avatar
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    I would be in for 38/357 and 45!
    hollow-point .......... member in south australia ...............THE MAN WHO NEVER MADE A MISTAKE NEVER MADE ANYTHING!!!! mature age is a privilige granted to but few!

  5. #25
    Boolit Buddy
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    I would be interested in one if it will be the h&g 503 clone. Thanks Bob

  6. #26
    I'm A Honcho! bluejay75's Avatar
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    Im going to discuss this one with Miha and see how he wants to proceed. I think this one is ready to go live. This is a team effort...so lets get this one right for 'ol Elmer.
    You never know how you rank amongst men 'til you have seen what will break another man.
    The original "Bluejay" US Army/ US Navy 1945-1970.

  7. #27
    Boolit Buddy
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    Thanks for getting this going blue jay 75 i am very interested in the 503 clone. I have some unused birthday points to use up from the wife.Turned the big 50 June 1.So I hope this happens.Thanks again Bob

  8. #28
    Boolit Master Highland Drifter's Avatar
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    I think we are in error with the 38/357. Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to an H&G catalog from the 70's, the #51 is a Phil Sharpe design. It shows the #43 is the 173 gain Keith design.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master


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    I have PDFs of several pre war H&G catalogs and HD is correct - the H&G 43 is the Keith design.

  10. #30
    Boolit Bub
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    Before we get to far down the road in this project I'd like to revisit the point of my earlier post.
    If the goal of this series is to duplicate exact copies of the original Keith mold the only possible source for the 429421 is an original Ideal mold. According to what I would consider reliable references Ideal was producing 429421 molds true to Elmer's design years before James Gibbs meet George Hensley.
    http://www.sixguns.com/crew/theme.htm
    http://www.hensleygibbs.com/casting/history.jpg

    I have two of the original Ideal 429421 molds that are from that window in time and a Hensley & Gibbs # 503 that I would be happy to send to someone capable of taking precise measurements.

    As has been previously stated there has been many attempt to provide molds of Elmer's exact design to the masses lets not be an also ran.
    Last edited by Spillway; 06-08-2018 at 11:45 AM.

  11. #31
    I'm A Honcho! bluejay75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spillway View Post
    Before we get to far down the road in this project I'd like to revisit the point of my earlier post.
    If the goal of this series is to duplicate exact copies of the original Keith mold the only possible source for the 429421 is an original Ideal mold. According to what I would consider reliable references Ideal was producing 429421 molds true to Elmer's design years before James Gibbs meet George Hensley.
    http://www.sixguns.com/crew/theme.htm
    http://www.hensleygibbs.com/casting/history.jpg

    I have two of the original Ideal 429421 molds that are from that window in time and a Hensley & Gibbs # 503 that I would be happy to send to someone capable of taking precise measurements.

    As has been previously stated there has be many attempt to provide molds of Elmer's exact design to the masses lets not be an also ran.
    Sir. Send a pm please. You validated my research on the matter and data from a very trusted designer.
    You never know how you rank amongst men 'til you have seen what will break another man.
    The original "Bluejay" US Army/ US Navy 1945-1970.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nueces View Post
    Gotta be careful here. About all recent attempts to recreate Elmer's designs have failed, mostly because of design alterations made for some of the same reasons Lyman used to make changes. Elmer was incensed enough to deny the latter Lyman products in favor of H&G, the only maker he claimed to be producing to his design. Examples of two such alterations are the rounded lube groove and the smaller and narrower front band.

    Many reproduction attempts have also failed to get the nose profile right. I have not located any original language that completely specifies this profile, but I believe I have determined how it was first produced. I think the Keith nose was first made (in the 358429) from a smooth ogive design by filing down the cherry blank to produce the sharp shoulder, which Keith believed to provide a cutting terminal effect. We now know that no such cutting effect is produced in game, just in paper. Y'all look at old photos of the earliest designs and see if you see what I see concerning how the nose was made. The curve immediately behind the meplat appears to lead to a smooth ogive, before curving somewhat more sharply to intersect with the sharp shoulder.
    Over the production life, Lyman did make some significant changes in the original Keith design, which did prompt Keith to disown the Lyman versions. He threw a particular fit when Lyman changed from the square lube groove to a rounded one. He claimed the round groove did not contain enough lubricant.

    Some years back, a member here, who went by the name of Catshooter, along with several others did considerable historic research and produced some group buy 6 cavity Lee moulds in the original design. I have all of the series.

    It is also true, that the square lube grooves are more difficult to cast than the rounded lube grooves. With todays better lubes, the rounded lube grooves does just fine.

    It should be noted that when Keith introduced the bullets, they were a radical change and improvement over bullets of the day. So, they are interesting from a historical point of view. That said, there are many bullets today that are as good, if not better,
    than what Keith designed back in the day.
    Last edited by Char-Gar; 06-08-2018 at 12:44 PM.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master


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    Char-Gar, I have three of those older Lee 6 bangers, because I feared no one would ever produce the like again. But, these are the good old days!

    I have no objection to altering the full square grooves to trapezoidal forms, putting a bit of a slope on the sides.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master


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    I like Spillway's idea to go for the earliest Ideal shapes. He's correct that they were made from cherries okayed by Keith himself.

    Another sticking point is nose length. Most modern 'Keith' copies shorten the 38 nose to fit shorter cylinders, as in Smith N frames and Colt Pythons. Thus, we get Sharpe bullets, not Keiths. The long nose Keiths, shot in Smiths, were exceptional long range performers, as reported in Elmer's books. It's the only design that interests me. Else, why have the Smith Outdoorsmen and Colt Shooting Masters in my safe?

  15. #35
    Boolit Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nueces View Post
    Char-Gar, I have three of those older Lee 6 bangers, because I feared no one would ever produce the like again. But, these are the good old days!

    I have no objection to altering the full square grooves to trapezoidal forms, putting a bit of a slope on the sides.
    The original Keith molds didn't have 90 degree lube grooves. There was a slight angle, or else they would not come out of the mold. I understand that Keith original had steel bullets turned with 90 degree lube groove corners and sent those to Lyman, but was told that would not work for the foregoing reason. That is when they went with a slight angle.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  16. #36
    Boolit Master
    Mal Paso's Avatar
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    Put me down for a 429421

    The #503 was designed for the 44 Mag well after the 429421. Miha already produces the #503 clone. Group buy happened earlier this year and may still be available.

    That NOE Kieth Signature heavy SWC wasn't special. The Group Buy Results got awfully quiet. Al makes great molds it's just the 503 clone grouped better.
    Mal

    Mal Paso means Bad Pass, just so you know.

  17. #37
    Boolit Bub
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    Didn’t Brian Pearce pen a piece with some measurements of a very early Ideal 429421 in Handloader a few years ago?

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    I already have two 503 molds, but I don't believe I have any true 358429 molds. I would be interested in one of those from Miha.

  19. #39
    I'm A Honcho! Wasalmonslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardcast View Post
    I already have two 503 molds, but I don't believe I have any true 358429 molds. I would be interested in one of those from Miha.

    I just reran the 358429 last year.
    Message Miha he may have an extra.

  20. #40
    Boolit Master
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    I'd be in for a 429421.
    geo

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check