The only breech seating with an air gap I've seen mentioned in the old writings and notes were the schuetzen guys.
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The only breech seating with an air gap I've seen mentioned in the old writings and notes were the schuetzen guys.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
kurt,
i often wonder if breech seating is about a relationship between the leade angle and the base of the bullet, or some other thing.
not only would you avoid swaging a bumped up base back down, but finning, cupping, and such of the base might also be helped.
i cannot say breech seating is better in all rifles, but certainly works in both mine, 40 and 45 cals.
i went from touching, increasing in 0.010 increments.
the article by/about major c w hinman is in arms and the man
the following link talks about this, and also mentions milton farrow's reloading kit, whick includes a breech seater.
www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=22018
don,
surprized you don't remember this as it has been well discussed in your forum.
you might be able to find the link there to the actual hinman article.
somewhere on your forum or shiloh kenny w found the original article.
general,
the problem is with this real stuff that some guys are fixated on bison, and let target shooting stuff go in 1 ear and out the other.
today fixed ammo, greasers, and neck tension is all anyone wants to think about, at the expense of history.
keep safe,
bruce.
Bruce yes there are some that breech seated, but I still don't recall any that left airspace, except for the schuetzen shooters.
Many of the original Creedmoor shooters would not shoot anything but factory ammunition, due to the brass not holding up for reloads. If they didn't shoot the fixed factory ammunition they used factory new cases.
When you get right down to it, the number of long range target shooters wasn't very large. With exception of a few mentions here and there, they didn't get much press. When the New York rifle club took the Irish challenge they tried very hard to entice some of the better known riflemen off of the buffalo plains to come back east to shoot the match, as they were the only ones with real experience at long range. None of them took the bait.
Yes lots of this stuff was lost to history. A good example is I asked an old gentleman that lived thru the transition from big bore black powder rifles to todays smaller bore smokeless cartridges what he missed the most from back then. His answer shocked me a bit as his reply was "kings semi smokeless".
We have came a long way back towards what the ODG's did, but there's a lot of work to be done that may never get accomplished. I know of several that have tried to make the conversion from High-power and F class to bpcr, and just don't quite make it. Black powder and smokeless shooting are all together different ventures, and if one thinks about it , it's not hard to figure out why the 30 wcf cartridge followed by the 30 US here, and the 303 brit on the other sides of the two big ponds made the blackpowder cartridges disappear practically over nite in historical timeline.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
i only load/shoot ppb's, so thinking to get rid of any greaser freebore and get the case mouth as close to the rifling, with maybe a 7* angle. it was a fleeting thought that this topic has put to rest as not realistic. as is, it's just fine and i was overthinking something what ain't broke.Originally Posted by Lead pot
Many of the original Creedmoor shooters would not shoot anything but factory ammunition, due to the brass not holding up for reloads. If they didn't shoot the fixed factory ammunition they used factory new cases.don, just curious as to where you got this info - if printed matter, i'd love the source so i can read up. thanx!When the New York rifle club took the Irish challenge they tried very hard to entice some of the better known riflemen off of the buffalo plains to come back east to shoot the match, as they were the only ones with real experience at long range. None of them took the bait.
The bit about the factory ammo is in several sources from books of the time. Perry's Modern Observation of Modern Rifle shooting 3rd edition in particular.
WHD Dodge covers it a little bit in his writings about transitioning from the big Creedmoor guns to the 30 US. Roberts in his Schuetzen Rifle book covers some of the stuff about the long range shooting, and really hits it home when he talks about the death of the long range shooting and the jump in popularity of the Schuetzen type matches. Funny how history does repeat itself, we see much the same thing going on today with the over taking of ranges by the black gun crowd, and the decline in bpcr shooters and matches.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
thank you, don.
Robert here is what I use for taking out a 45 degree chamber end. The left is a .45 with a 5 degree compound and the right is for a .40 4 degree 1.5 compound. Using one of these throating reamers you need a bushing that sits in the rim recess and partly tight in the chamber and a proper fitting pilot in the bore so everything is in alignment so you don't cut a eccentric case neck and all you will do is change the 45 degree transition of the chamber end with a funnel of and a degree you want or a compound that will also change the lead angle on the lands to any degree. You can also use this reamer to lengthen the chamber say from a .40-65 to as long as a .40-82 or anything in between.
But also a lot of rifles have been screwed up using one of these throating reamers with out using a back bushing and a depth stop like I make for mine.......Kurt
Attachment 219308Attachment 219309
kurt, dunno much about chamber reamers, but yours look well thought out quite functional. thanx!
rfd,
Wondering what kind of shooting you intend for your 40 cal ?
Your use of the 422 gr bullet implies use for Sillywet?
Otherwise, short range? 100,200,etc
Midrange?
Long range?
200 to 600 yards.
yes guys used factory ammo, and in the early times some of it seems to have included a grease wad.
the wad seems to have been dumped fairly early.
today some target shooters still use factory ammo too, but most reload for better accuracy and economy.
guys also bought factory projectiles, patched or unpatched.
those might have been as good or better than cast ones if you did not have a hammer swage and the time to use one.
by the time fixed ammo was having the bullet about 1/8" in the case, factory ammo would have required some careful handling.
breech seating leaves no history of ammo, for obvious reasons.
then some muzzle loaded, from the beginning to the end, also leaving no evidence of ammo, but there is in print.
it is interesting reading of the pitfalls of pouring powder down a barrel having forgotten to put a primed case in the chamber first.
muzzle loading a breech loader does seem to pose some safety questions, as unlike a capping muzzle loader, there is a live primer there from the get go.
keep safe,
bruce.
Bruce you do know the cartridge guys that muzzle loaded used a system much like the muzzle loader guys, only they didn't pour the powder down the barrel, they used the short starter etc, and then had a stop on the ram rod to stop the bullet at the spot they wanted, then inserted the primed and charged case when ready to fire.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
I can certainly understand this first hand. I was a Hi-master in both across the course and Palma before I took up cast bullet silhouette and later BP silhouette. Learning all the new skills and nuances required to load quality ammo, wind doping and just plain trigger time can be daunting. That said I wish I had started this game 20 years ago, it's a lot of fun and with many great individuals willing to help.
NRA Endowment member, TSRA Life member, Distinguished Rifleman, Viet Nam Vet
rfd, your existing 40-65 can do some amazing things.
PIC of 40-72 and 40-65 s, and PIC of 40-65 group at 100yds/PP bullet over 74.5gr Swiss 1.5 at 1400fps
This 40-65 has shot a 99/3x at 800yds with my bullets.
So you may wish to continue to exercise it as is
beltfed/arnie
Oh, the 40-72 is same as the 40-70SS, except 2.58" case instead of 2.5" length case
beltfed/arnie
and the 40/2.5 was often referred to as the 40/65.
keep safe,
bruce.
don, as you say that was one way they did it.
i have also read of pouring powder down the barrel and forgetting to put a case in the chamber first.
i know which way woild be safer on a public range.
my own original hiwall has been speedlocked, part of which included removing the 1/2 cock notch!
absolutely no way to load that until you are absolutely ready to shoot.
actually loading the bullet from the muzzle and then chambering a charged case is just a harder way of breech seating.
possibly that is how breech seating came about?
keep safe,
bruce.
thanx arnie!
rfd, your existing 40-65 can do some amazing things.
PIC of 40-72 and 40-65 s, and PIC of 40-65 group at 100yds/PP bullet over 74.5gr Swiss 1.5 at 1400fps
This 40-65 has shot a 99/3x at 800yds with my bullets.
So you may wish to continue to exercise it as is
beltfed/arnie
yep, will continue to work up as good a ppb load as i can for the .40-65 cartridge in it's current grease chamber.
rfd
Important thing is my bullets are about 1.325" long for the 16 twist,
and, elliptical ogive/smooth PP, so they are then stabile out to long range.
Whereas the popular, and accurate for midrange bullet, the Lyman 410663
is just about 1.4" long but will go "squirrelly" at long range from a 16 twist.
beltfed/arnie
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