38 spl "FBI load"

[35remington]

You won’t come to any harm for believing that. Trouble is there is no evidence that disbelieving it is harmful either. The “case files” supposedly proving this point are questionable to say the least.

You will not get sued for using handloads because they make you look bloodthirsty. The originator of that claim does not attempt to go there anymore himself, so you can let that go too.

[Petrol & Powder]

if i am wrong aboutusing factory ammo for fear of proscution then i am happy to admit it.

OK, that horse has been beat to death a thousand times over.

Let's not go down that path again.

In a nutshell:

There are criminal cases

And

There are civil cases.

Under criminal law, it is either a justified use of force or it isn't. The type of ammo isn't a factor. The STATE will prosecute you or the STATE will not prosecute you. That prosecution depends on a lot of things but the type of ammo will probably not be a factor.

In a civil suit, the plaintiff's attorney may bring up the issue of ammunition. However, the fact that the plaintiff attempts to make something an issue doesn't mean that it is a valid issue. So again, probably not something that needs to generate a lot of concern.

People seem to have a hard time understanding the difference between criminal law and civil law.
Criminal = the state vs. you. The state can put you in prison.
Civil = you vs. someone else. The other guy can only take money from you.

If you use deadly force there could be two trials - The state vs. you (criminal) AND the person you shot vs. you (civil)

This topic really isn't worth any more ink or time.

[texasnative46]

ReloaderFred,

That's OK. = My query was simply IDLE CURIOSITY.

As for me (in a "snubbie"), I'll stick to a "heavy for caliber" lead boolit at moderate velocity, as the old .38 Super Police 200grain load was.
(When I was a LEO in south LA, that load was "department issue" & it worked FINE in our Colt' & S&W snub-nose revolvers.)

yours, tex

[Mytmousemalibu]

OK, that horse has been beat to death a thousand times over.

Let's not go down that path again.

In a nutshell:

There are criminal cases

And

There are civil cases.

Under criminal law, it is either a justified use of force or it isn't. The type of ammo isn't a factor. The STATE will prosecute you or the STATE will not prosecute you. That prosecution depends on a lot of things but the type of ammo will probably not be a factor.

In a civil suit, the plaintiff's attorney may bring up the issue of ammunition. However, the fact that the plaintiff attempts to make something an issue doesn't mean that it is a valid issue. So again, probably not something that needs to generate a lot of concern.

People seem to have a hard time understanding the difference between criminal law and civil law.
Criminal = the state vs. you. The state can put you in prison.
Civil = you vs. someone else. The other guy can only take money from you.

If you use deadly force there could be two trials - The state vs. you (criminal) AND the person you shot vs. you (civil)

This topic really isn't worth any more ink or time.

Something worth adding here... Check your state's laws... In Kansas at least and I believe most states, if you are being challenged under criminal law and found NOT GUILTY, then you are released from prosecution from a civil lawsuit. You are found not liable and thus cannot be tried civilly. On the converse, if you are found criminally guilty then you are subject to civil suit as well.

I personally think the whole "reloaded defense ammo" wives tale is just that and dosen't hold water unless a person was to do something really stupid. Like filling a hollow point cavity with ricin or something crazy like that. It could be used against you if you used deadly force without real justification. If I have to legitimately need to pull out a firearm and use it, then it will dang sure be justified. And at that point, i don't care if i had a 22 short or a mountain gun, I need it and ammo factory or reload is a moot point. Anyone that has intention of using firearms for self defense better know the distinction of a good or bad shoot.

My daily carry, a S&W 442, has a cylinder full of my handload. Granted it exactly matches the OEM loading with exception of charge weight, my load is hotter. Good luck determining that from my fired brass.

[sniper]

This is so far off subject I hesitate to bring it up but.... back in the day upside down full wad cutters were tried.. this (for me) was a failure with the hollow base either plugging up (making a solid) or folding over which made for erratic performance or... shattering. lazs

Your experience is similar to mine "back in the day", except at 25 yards, my HBWCs mounted backwards over ~5 gr Unique were mostly traveling sideways by the time they reached 25 yards. For obvious reasons, I haven't done a lot with them after I shot up what I had. Although, 148 gr. traveling sideways seems like it would be a good deterrent at shorter ranges. Now I am wondering if maybe a full wadcutter @ 800-900 fps might be a viable Target/SD round.

[Petrol & Powder]

Something worth adding here... Check your state's laws... In Kansas at least and I believe most states, if you are being challenged under criminal law and found NOT GUILTY, then you are released from persecution from a civil lawsuit. You are found not liable and thus cannot be tried civilly. On the converse, if you are found criminally guilty then you are subject to civil suit as well.

I personally think the whole "reloaded defense ammo" wives tale is just that and dosen't hold water unless a person was to do something really stupid. Like filling a hollow point cavity with ricin or something crazy like that. It could be used against you if you used deadly force without real justification. If I have to legitimately need to pull out a firearm and use it, then it will dang sure be justified. And at that point, i don't care if i had a 22 short or a mountain gun, I need it and ammo factory or reload is a moot point. Anyone that has intention of using firearms for self defense better know the distinction of a good or bad shoot.

My daily carry, a S&W 442, has a cylinder full of my handload. Granted it exactly matches the OEM loading with exception of charge weight, my load is hotter. Good luck determining that from my fired brass.

Prosecution = conducting a legal proceeding against someone.

Persecution = hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs.


Nothing can stop someone from suing you. NOTHING ! A law suit may be very short lived if there are laws to shield someone engaged in lawful self-defense but that never prevents someone from filing a suit and initiating the civil case. There will always be a slimy attorney that will file a lawsuit even when that lawsuit stands zero chance of moving forward.

THERE'S A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING SUED AND BEING SUCCESSFULLY SUED.

If you use deadly force, expect to get sued. Even if your state has laws to prevent those types of suits from being successful - nothing stops someone from starting those suits.

[Char-Gar]

Something worth adding here... Check your state's laws... In Kansas at least and I believe most states, if you are being challenged under criminal law and found NOT GUILTY, then you are released from persecution from a civil lawsuit. You are found not liable and thus cannot be tried civilly. On the converse, if you are found criminally guilty then you are subject to civil suit as well.

I personally think the whole "reloaded defense ammo" wives tale is just that and dosen't hold water unless a person was to do something really stupid. Like filling a hollow point cavity with ricin or something crazy like that. It could be used against you if you used deadly force without real justification. If I have to legitimately need to pull out a firearm and use it, then it will dang sure be justified. And at that point, i don't care if i had a 22 short or a mountain gun, I need it and ammo factory or reload is a moot point. Anyone that has intention of using firearms for self defense better know the distinction of a good or bad shoot.

My daily carry, a S&W 442, has a cylinder full of my handload. Granted it exactly matches the OEM loading with exception of charge weight, my load is hotter. Good luck determining that from my fired brass.

The Texas "Castle Law" exempts people from civil liability in shootings that fall under that law. This is to say that a legal finding of a Castle Law shooting will be a bar to litigation. However, all other shooting are exposed to civil liability.

In Texas, I don't see the use of handloaded ammo to be a factor in civil litigation regarding a shooting. There are several legal components of such a law suit, but negligence is the key factor. Was the shooter negligent in shooting the plaintiff. The ammo should not be a consideration in whether or not the shooting was negligence.

I will just leave it at that and forgo the long lecture on Tort law.

[USSR]

I carry what I shoot, and I shoot what I carry. That would be my handloads. By some of your reasoning, the lawyers would have a field day with me since I cast my own bullets and am an NRA Certified Reloading Instructor.

Don

[Mytmousemalibu]

Prosecution = conducting a legal proceeding against someone.

Persecution = hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs

Sometimes auto correct is your friend, sometimes your foe!

[Mytmousemalibu]

The Texas "Castle Law" exempts people from civil liability in shootings that fall under that law. This is to say that a legal finding of a Castle Law shooting will be a bar to litigation. However, all other shooting are exposed to civil liability.

In Texas, I don't see the use of handloaded ammo to be a factor in civil litigation regarding a shooting. There are several legal components of such a law suit, but negligence is the key factor. Was the shooter negligent in shooting the plaintiff. The ammo should not be a consideration in whether or not the shooting was negligence.

I will just leave it at that and forgo the long lecture on Tort law.

The Texas "Castle Law" exempts people from civil liability in shootings that fall under that law. This is to say that a legal finding of a Castle Law shooting will be a bar to litigation. However, all other shooting are exposed to civil liability.

In Texas, I don't see the use of handloaded ammo to be a factor in civil litigation regarding a shooting. There are several legal components of such a law suit, but negligence is the key factor. Was the shooter negligent in shooting the plaintiff. The ammo should not be a consideration in whether or not the shooting was negligence.

I will just leave it at that and forgo the long lecture on Tort law.

Kansas is the same. Castle law and stand your ground applies here. That aside, we both and USSR seem to be of the same mindset when it comes to handloads and self defense.

But I digress... I love reading through threads about the famed FBI load, Super Police load, etc. I find this kind of stuff very interesting. I love the backstories and info on police issue ammo like ReloaderFred and Outpost75 have to tell. Gold stuff guys!

[RED BEAR]

i really did not mean to get this going this far. but i have been told this by instructors firearms dealers even one lawyer. i to practice with what i carry i go to great lengths to duplicate the factory ammo i am carring. if wife doesn't like ammo she uses i will duplicate other factory loads to give her the chance to try different loads without the expence of buying all of them. then let her try the ones she liked best. if you feel more comfortable carrying reloads then by all means go for it. do what ever you think is best for you.

[Gunslinger1911]

Well, I started this fur ball (fun and informative), I'll chime in on this detour (not a problem, fits right in with the original question).
I see it as a CYA thing, if you don't use hand loads for SD then you can't be sued for doing it. Cops use factory ammo.
This would be my dad's thought process - he was a pilot in the Army Air Corps (yea, looooong time ago), he survived, figured he was on borrowed time the rest of his life, most OC man you would EVER meet !
I'm my fathers son...... most of the time, lol. I carry my hand loads, Can't get the Speer "Flying Ashtray" any more - my MiHec mould throws a pretty good imitation.

From my research back in the day, no one has ever been sued for a "good shoot" for using hand loads.

Admittedly, no one that we know of has packed plutonium or sarin in a hollow point - that might come back to bite you.
Mas Ayoob - (shill, dweeb, master; take your pick) - tech witness in hundreds of cases, says same.
Marshall and Sanow (the original morgue monsters), same thing.
By the way, Anybody remember who was called the "Jello Junky" for their gelatin testing ?

So, neat thing about America, we have choices; do your research, weigh your options, do what's best for you.

I carry a .45 Officers ACP, my version of the flying ashtray. I shoot it a LOT. I'm gonna rue the day I wear that sucker out and have to build a new one (oh, did we get into carrying a "custom" version of a factory firearm? ). Oh, ****; here we go, off on another tangent. haha

As I said, do the research, weigh your options, do what's best for YOU.

[FergusonTO35]

In the links I posted previously, we see that not all factory FBI loads are the same out of a short barrel. The Winchester load is about 100 fps slower than the Remington, and Federal falls in the middle. They all offer similar performance in that much of the energy is used to turn the hollow point into basically a full wadcutter, which then produces similar performance to the sleepy target round. I'm gonna stick with my Lyman wadcutters!

[Outpost75]

Back when the government was buying the loads, the specifications required testing in the 4-inch vented test barrel.

Current data on the Winchester web site shows 1050 fps testing from a 7.1" solid test barrel.

Attachment 219374

[Larry Gibson]

I duplicate original Winchester 38 SPL LSWCHP +P velocity and pressure (actually measured via an Oehler M43) using soft cast 358477s or 358156HPs in Winchester cases with WSP primers and 5.5 gr of Unique. The measured psi MAP of that load is just under the SAAMI MAP for 38 SPL +P. That 5.5 gr Unique load runs 975 fps out of my 4" M15 and just under 900 fps out of my 2 1/2" M19 with the 150 gr cast bullets.

Attachment 219379

[FergusonTO35]

Cool, will have to remember that. What kind of primers are you using? Primer brand can make a huge difference in this cartridge. Federal is the best I've ever tried but they are only seen on the side of milk cartons around here.

[Jtarm]

The current factory offerings are reputedly watered down from the original.

Buffalo Bore sells one that supposedly matches the original, but at over $1 per round, I’m not gonna find out.

[35remington]

The 1.875” Smiths do show some velocity loss over the 2.5” guns, as would be expected. I would suppose based on my own use of Unique that 860 fps or in that vicinity would be top end Plus P from the short Smith barrels using a 158 SWC.

[FergusonTO35]

Accurate #5 is an excellent powder that often gets overlooked. 6.3 grains will squirt out a 158 grain slug at 920 fps from my 4" S&W 10-5, that is a published +P load.

[Outpost75]

Accurate #5 is an excellent powder that often gets overlooked. 6.3 grains will squirt out a 158 grain slug at 920 fps from my 4" S&W 10-5, that is a published +P load.

5 grains of AutoComp is also a published +P load in .38 Special with 158 lead SWC.