38 spl "FBI load"

[ReloaderFred]

Nit picking here, but I thought Hodgdon now made all W-W powders?

Hodgdon doesn't make any of their powders. They own the brand names, and they have them made to their specifications by others. The Winchester ball powders are made by St. Marks Powder Co., in St. Marks, FL. Other powders are made in Canada, Australia, Europe, etc.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[dubber123]

Alliant lists 5.4 grains of Power Pistol as the top of the standard pressure range and six grains as the top end Plus P. I have chronoed the 5.4 and six grain loads.

The Pearce article I quoted is before me. No standard pressure load exceeded 850 fps and any load approximating 900 fps was listed as Plus P.

When handloads start to equal or substantially exceed the velocities obtained from factory Plus P, the “no free lunches” alarm starts jangling in my head.

For the other reasons mentioned I do not go over 810 fps myself.

Must be a new article. My memory is not steel trap tight, but hasn't completely gone away either. I will retrieve the article when possible, it is 4 hours away. I am quite sure it was listed as 5.8 PP with a 158, and pressure at 17,000 Psi. Misprint? Accurate? I don't know. I trust Pearce to accurately represent pressure as much as I trust manuals to downgrade loads. If I had the equipment, I would know myself. I can chronograph said 5.8/158 load, but pressures will be up to speculation.

[USSR]

Fred is correct. Hodgdon has never made a powder. They buy the rights to name brands and have the various powder manufacturers put the Hodgdon label on their powders for the Hodgdon powders.

Don

[35remington]

It would be most prudent to presume any load generating 900 fps in a snubby with a 158 grain is not generating modest pressures.

If something seems to be beyond what is reasonable, it probably is, by the “no free lunch” principle. Mild loads are very likely not outrunning factory Plus P by large margins while remaining mild. If conflicting information is present, the smart move in hand loading is to presume the “good news” is not as represented and is actually not in your favor.

The article I reference is in a special edition made by Wolfe detailing the top ten most handloaded handgun cartridges.

Consider 5.8 grains PP plus P because Alliant says it is and the claimed velocity says it is. Two out of three is persuasive.

[brassrat]

Whether 800fps or 900fps, it will take the starch out of a bad guy.

No No it will put the starch in him

[35remington]

I do think Pearce is a generally reliable commentator, but I view his judgement on this matter in handloading some of the listed pistol cartridges as rather flawed. And not only in 38 Special.

For example, he lists 95 grain bullets at up to 1125 fps in some of his handloads from the lightweight short barreled 380 Ruger LCP. Most of the loads have top ends way beyond factory loads. Setting aside the issue of vastly accelerated wear over factory loads that average 225 to 275 fps slower than this with the same bullet weight in the tiny Ruger LCP, if the dynamics of pistol function are understood correctly by the reader, then they would know that the odds of inertial malfunctions and other power related maladies that cause less reliability soar when automatic pistols are overdriven.

Here we are talking about about 170 ft lbs (95@900) versus 267 ft lbs (95@1125). The odds of having the gun puke the round free from the feed lips instead of feeding it when the slide strikes the frame with greatly increased force or having the slide outrun the magazine due to excessive slide velocity and elastic rebound from its impact abutment go WAY up.

If you see someone advocating something contradictory, look at the rest of their body of work. If some other advice looks imprudent as well, the contradictory advice is piling up.

Take heed.

[Petrol & Powder]

It has been many years since I tested 158 grain 38 Special loads over a chronograph but I never got anywhere close to 900 fps out of a 2" barrel, even with +P pressures. In a 4" barrel with +P pressures it's easy to get 158 grain bullets to 900 fps.

I'm not going to say that 900 fps with a 158 grain bullet is impossible from a 2" barrel while remaining under 20K psi but I will say that I'm extremely skeptical of those claims.

[dubber123]

Lacking pressure testing equipment, I still will assemble some of the 5.8/PP/158 loads and chronograph them out of curiosity. I would not be surprised either way to see 900 fps, but I am guessing slightly less. I HAVE seen that velocity from my model 60 and 640, but I was after the most effective carry loads I could assemble, and was only concerned with function and accuracy, no sticky extraction, horribly leaded bore, etc. I'm quite sure pressures were up there, but judged safe by ME, and not intended for volume shooting.

[35remington]

My point is also that I would most assuredly not use some of his loads even if volume shooting was not involved.

Asking an Airweight Smith to run at 1000 fps with a 158 is, well.....lunacy.

I did not go into detail discussing some of the inadvisable 38 Special loads he lists. There are more than a few.

[Gunslinger1911]

Great info and food for thought.
Remember, these loads are going in a Detective Spl, a little stronger than a J frame, prob not as punishing either. A set of rubber grips will help the hand also.
Yes, these will be +P.'s
Top load is 6.7 g HS-6 with a 150 g. 1025 f/s out of a 4"bbl - whatever out of a snubby.
I'm loading in steps to see what she can handle, she may not like the full tilt loads.
No, not a steady diet of these, couple cylinders full each range day after some "normal" 150's.

Just as an aside, she is taking her CC class this weekend, I told her to watch the instructors face when she pulls out the Python for the shooting part (she's not used to the DS yet).

Discussion / debate is the root of all knowledge; keep it coming guys !

[35remington]

An old Detective Special is most assuredly not stronger than a new J frame. The metallurgy is inferior.

Authoritative advice that your gun not be subjected to Plus P loads has already been presented. It is your gun, do with it what you will.

But if all the aforementioned advice has unfortunately made no impression, then the consequences are yours to own. Any firearm that is no longer made combined with hot loads beyond its maker’s expressed advice to use seems to be a very incompatible pairing.

Here is where I suggest that a reread of post #13 in this thread is in order.

[Petrol & Powder]

Looking at Alliant's own data found here: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...8&cartridge=27

I see a 158 LSWC at +P pressures and 1037 fps in a 6" barrel. I don't know if that is a vented barrel to duplicate a revolver cylinder gap or just a solid test barrel. In any event, I think 900 fps with a 158gr bullet in a 2" revolver barrel is probably not going to happen within SAAMI specs.

I could be wrong but I've shot a LOT of 38 Special loads from snubnose revolvers over the years.

[35remington]

Agree with the above in principle. I believe in neither the need for ballistic miracles nor the need to drive a 38 hard from a small short barreled gun. Especially an aluminum gun or one not rated for Plus P.

Controllable repeat fire counts for much to me as well.

[35remington]

Since the FBI load is more proven that whatever you can assemble, a suggested policy for the OP is to completely forget the needless experimentation with Plus P handloads in a gun not rated for them, practice with non Plus P loads and then if you must, carry the FBI loads in the gun for needful purposes only, shooting very few of those as well.

[USSR]

FWIW, 900+ fps is easily reachable in the 2.5" S&W's. Using published load data for HS-6, I easily get 945fps. The bullet on the right in my above pic was traveling at that speed.

Don

[35remington]

Just about any velocity is reachable. In an old Dectective Special, the question is what is advisable.

[Petrol & Powder]

If 900 + fps in a 2" revolver is important to you........have at it.

I will not strive for that benchmark.

I certainly wouldn't strive for it in a Detective Special or an alloy framed snubnose.

[texasnative46]

Petrol & Powder.

Agreed 100%.

Btw, I'd like to find another Model 12 S&W (at a reasonable price) to replace the one that I had stolen in a house burglary in May 2017. = It was "near perfection" as a hide-out gun under an untucked golf shirt, when loaded with 6 rounds of HORNADY CRITICAL DEFENSE.

yours, tex

[9.3X62AL]

One of my least wise dispositions was the Model 10 x 2" I sold off when my shop went to autopistols in 1987. A 2" Model 10 or 64 would delightful, and a 3" Model 13 would make my day.

[Forrest r]

FWIW, 900+ fps is easily reachable in the 2.5" S&W's. Using published load data for HS-6, I easily get 945fps. The bullet on the right in my above pic was traveling at that speed.

Don

Exactly, no problem getting 900+fps out a a 2" bbl'd ca undercover with 158gr bullets and pp/2400/longshot.

Just as firearms are different bullet design, alloy, lube/coating will also make a huge difference in performance. Different 140gr to 160gr 35cal hp's, some will do 30+fps more with the same load compared to others in a 2" bbl'd 38spl. Couple that with some powders have a sharp snap to them while other tend to have more of a push.
[IMG][/IMG]

Really don't know what all the talk about uncontrollable recoil is all about???? Heck, last time I did p+ testing I ran 500 rounds of p+ 38spls in this 16oz ca undercover. The 1st 400 rounds were ok, the last 100 were taxing. There's a huge difference between 10 boxes of p+ ammo in 4 hours and a couple pulls of the trigger if needed.
[IMG][/IMG]

If you have to use standard velocity 38spl's, stick with powders like titegroup. Titegroup will easily outperform standard velocity 38spl/unique loads. Higher velocity, extremely low spread from shot to shot & it isn't anywhere near as position sensitive as unique.

If you're having a hard time controlling a snubnosed 38spl with hot loads you really should look for a different firearm. All's you're doing is limiting/lowering yours and everyone else around you chances of surviving if you ever have to use it. If you must carry a snubnosed 38spl and can't handle the recoil, a 200gr rn bullet is superior to a 148gr/160gr wc.

I take that 16oz ca undercover to the range every couple months with 100 rounds of 158gr/950fps/p+ reloads pictured above. And practice 7yd/10yd/25yd left hand/right hand/2 handed drills at torso targets. But I also do the same thing with a 21oz ca bulldog (44spl) using 210gr/1000fps/p+ loads.

Today I had the s&w l-comp out and ran 300 rounds of full house 2400/158gr cast swc hp's in it. But 357's in a 3" bbl'd revolver doesn't mean much when it weighs 38oz and is ported. Don't like the recoil of a snubnosed 38spl, get a l-comp s&w. It will eat 38spl p+/357's like popcorn.
[IMG][/IMG]

FWIW:
That ca undercover is nothing more than 1 of the misses cc firearms. I developed those 158gr/950fps/38spl p+ loads for her. She has no problem going to the range a couple times a year and putting that 16oz revolver thru it's paces burning a box or 2 each visit. She actually prefers a compact 9mm double stack but being the ca undercover is lighter. It gets used/carried most of the time.