38 spl "FBI load"

[35remington]

In a snubby the mentioned bullet often does not “classically” expand but rather puckers the nose a bit.

This would be erroneously seen by many as a failure but it is really not. In so doing adequate penetration is ensured, even if some impediment to penetration like a cross body shot occurs, intervening arm is present, or a larger person is involved. Penetration is usually about 10-20 percent less when this happens than a cast solid wadcutter shot at 780 fps from the same snubby but still considerably more than the minimum FBI standard, approximating the upper end of the acceptable range, which is actually more where I want to be.

A great influence on how well the bullet expands is where the powder is in the case when the round is fired. If it is bunched up near the bullet when the trigger is pulled expansion is less likely, but a moderately upset bullet performs as described in the previous paragraph, which is just fine.

It is possible with loads on the very top of what is claimed to be standard pressure (5.4 grains Power Pistol) to obtain 840-850 fps in a snubby. 6 grains is upper end Plus P but no fun in an aluminum 638 and controllability suffers so I avoid such loads. In truth, as others may agree here, I find them unnecessary.

[texasnative46]

To All,

IF you will pardon a recitation of my practical experience as a former railroad agent, city marshal & deputy sheriff of long ago (when we LEO nearly all carried either a revolver or a 1911 in .45ACP) , you would be BETTER OFF if you are going to carry a .38 "snubbie" with the so-called ".38SPL Super Police". i.e., a 200 grain soft lead bullet at about 650-700FPS.

Truth is that in my youth as a rookie LEO, the veterans thought it was "REALLY FUNNY" to send "the kid" to "observe" every autopsy. = I was "sworn in" as a Deputy Constable 4 days after I turned 18YO.
I attended MANY autopsies in each of my first few years of police work, until it wasn't so "FUNNY" anymore.
(Part of the reason that they stopped sending me to observe is that I started telling everyone in clinical detail about the ME's observations during meals with the veterans. = In those long ago days, the SO's staff ate our meals "family-style" at the "employees dining facility" inside the jail. = GOOD FOOD, too, btw.)

In any case, the "old-school" .38 Super Police load WRECKS the inside of the K5 area & W/O damaging the revolver or the shooter. = It's truly "A KILLER" out of a 2" barrel because it TUMBLES inside the body cavity & "expends its energy" therein.
(That load does NOT usually tumble out of a 4" or longer barrel but it's still OK as a defensive round out to 25M+. - One autopsy that I remember was the ME's examination of the opened chest of a armed burglar, who "got in a shootout" with a detective at a reported 15-20M. = TWO shots of Winchester .38 Super Police RNL from a 2" S&W Model 10 revolver "took out" BOTH lungs & converted his heart to "mush". = DRT.)

Note: In those "days of yore" my duty/off-duty revolver was a 1st-issue Colt's Cobra & I never felt "under-armed" with it.

yours, tex

[dubber123]

I just re-read a Brian Pearce article in an older Handloader magazine that claims a 158 gr boolit can be run to 900 Fps. in a 2" snub at upper standard pressures using Power Pistol powder. In my testing of cast HPs in snubs, the more velocity the better. My personal load runs 875 Fps. from my 2" 640 S&W. I have seen 900 fps, but they leaded just a touch, so I knocked off a bit. If recoil is an issue, I would take a wadcutter over a non expanding boolit with a smaller meplat.

[Char-Gar]

I have a very big fan of the 38 Special round and Smith and WEsson and Colt revolvers. Threads like this draw me like a kitten to a bowl of cream. Excellent information has been given by people with the knowledge and experience to speak with true authority. There is nothing I can add other than say, I enjoyed reading this thread.

[35remington]

900 fps in a snubby with a 158 ain’t gonna happen, speaking of 1 7/8 inch barrels and standard pressures.
The 840-850 FPS range is the most that can be hoped for. Pearce had a recent article on standard and Plus P loads in an LCR and none of the standard velocity loads he mentioned reached 900. Or anywhere near it. I do not consider 840-850 to be “near.”

Most of the standard pressure loads given top out in the 800-820 FPS range.

If one winds up in that range (900) with an aluminum gun, two things happen, neither good. Controllability goes south, at least in my hands, and gun longevity plummets.

[texasnative46]

35Remington,

SPOT ON and it is my position that there's NO good reason (in the REAL world) for a "snubbie" .38SPL load of that "+P++" speed. = That's WHY the .357 Magnum was "invented". if you think that you need it & can control the revolver to hit the target.
(Fyi, I once traded for a Model 29 S&W with a 4" barrel & almost developed "a permanent flinch" from firing HOT loads in it. - I finally went to a .44SPL lead bullet load & did fine thereafter.)

just my OPINION, tex

[USSR]

Wet newsprint does not 'clog' HP bullets. They expand nicely. You would do well to test with denim, at least two layers. 30 yrs ago Mm father-in-law and I did a lot of testing to find HP for short barrel .45 ACP loads. We used two layers of denim or one of denim and one of flannel. Just about any HP lead bullet would clog with denim and not expand at the sub 1000fps velocities. Even the Silver tips and Gold Dots back then would clog and not expand when fired from a short barrel pistol.

Well, I will have to try with some flannel then, as I'm not as bad enough of a shot to shoot somebody in his jeans.

Don

[texasnative46]

USSR,

You MAY want to try a flannel shirt with a heavy leather jacket "buttoned over" a torso-form.

yours, tex

[35remington]

For whatever reason, unless loads are of the highest permissible pressure levels some folks just aren’t interested. In my younger days I was of that notion, and when I obtained a very nice C series M and P I was actually disappointed to discover it was not rated for Plus P loads. Little did I know of what was really important and usable.

Time and better perspective, as well as my usage of lightweight five shot Smiths served to disabuse me of the notion that gun straining loads are in any way necessary in the Special. It does just fine at standard pressures, and a 158 at reasonable speed will do anything reasonable to expect from the cartridge. A 158 at around 810 fps, which is what top end standard pressure gets in my 638 with 4.7 grains Unique (or whatever similar velocity occurs with other powders or factory loadings) is about all I want.

[tazman]

I agree with 35remington. Standard loads and bullet placement do everything needed from a 38 special.
Out to any distance that I can be accurate with a handgun, I don't feel under gunned. If the target is farther away, I need a rifle no matter the caliber of my handgun.

[Petrol & Powder]

It has been a long time since I had access to a chronograph but I have done a fair amount of testing in the past.

Things may have changed but I don't recall ever getting anywhere close to 900 fps with a 158 grain bullet fired from a 1 7/8" J-frame; at least not within SAAMI +P pressure limits.

It's very tempting for some folks to start chasing the velocity rabbit and I learned a long time ago that speed isn't everything.

[FergusonTO35]

I once talked to an old copper whose career ran from the 60's into the 90's. He said the FBI load was the most effective handgun round he ever saw. He said he had sat in on autopsies of perps whose careers were cut short with these rounds and the results were impressive. "One per customer is all you need" he quipped.

[Groo]

Groo here
There was an fbi loading just before they changed to autos .
The issue pistol was a snub barrel m13 or m19 in 357...
But due to the short ejector , 357 cases had problems, so ammo was made in 38 length cases.
This ammo was never sold or given to others.
Had 2 different people from the bureau tell about it.
For a similar loading ,look at Buffelo Bore 38 spec "heavy" loading.
This is about the old 38-44 Highspeed or Highwaypatrol loading and all S&W 38's were proofed for it [including the J frames ]
back when S&W only made steel guns...

[dubber123]

900 fps in a snubby with a 158 ain’t gonna happen, speaking of 1 7/8 inch barrels and standard pressures.
The 840-850 FPS range is the most that can be hoped for. Pearce had a recent article on standard and Plus P loads in an LCR and none of the standard velocity loads he mentioned reached 900. Or anywhere near it. I do not consider 840-850 to be “near.”

Most of the standard pressure loads given top out in the 800-820 FPS range.

If one winds up in that range (900) with an aluminum gun, two things happen, neither good. Controllability goes south, at least in my hands, and gun longevity plummets.

I do not have the article in front of me, but I do believe the load was 5.8 grains of Power Pistol, and the pressure was tested at 17,000 Psi. I have not chronographed this load, and do not have access to pressure testing equipment, however I believe Mr. Pearce does.

[Outpost75]

If I am correct, Power Pistol has been discontinued and replaced by AutoComp.
5 grains is the +P load, with AutoComp using a 158-grain bullet in .38 Special.

[JBinMN]

If I am correct, Power Pistol has been discontinued and replaced by AutoComp.
5 grains is the +P load, with AutoComp using a 158-grain bullet in .38 Special.

You must be mistaken about that & perhaps are thinking of some other powders.
Power Pistol is made by Alliant Powder & AutoComp is made by Winchester/Western, and neither are discontinued from what I can find out by looking at their websites, as well as using a search engine to try to find out.

[FergusonTO35]

Nit picking here, but I thought Hodgdon now made all W-W powders?

[35remington]

Alliant lists 5.4 grains of Power Pistol as the top of the standard pressure range and six grains as the top end Plus P. I have chronoed the 5.4 and six grain loads.

The Pearce article I quoted is before me. No standard pressure load exceeded 850 fps and any load approximating 900 fps was listed as Plus P.

When handloads start to equal or substantially exceed the velocities obtained from factory Plus P, the “no free lunches” alarm starts jangling in my head.

For the other reasons mentioned I do not go over 810 fps myself.

[Petrol & Powder]

Groo here
There was an fbi loading just before they changed to autos .
The issue pistol was a snub barrel m13 or m19 in 357...
But due to the short ejector , 357 cases had problems, so ammo was made in 38 length cases.
This ammo was never sold or given to others.
Had 2 different people from the bureau tell about it.
For a similar loading ,look at Buffelo Bore 38 spec "heavy" loading.
This is about the old 38-44 Highspeed or Highwaypatrol loading and all S&W 38's were proofed for it [including the J frames ]
back when S&W only made steel guns...

The last revolver issued by the Bureau was the S&W Model 13 with a 3" barrel and a round butt grip frame. It was one of the few good ideas the Bureau ever had. The two loads permitted to be carried in that gun were the 38 Special +P 158gr LSWCHP [FBI Load] and the Winchester .357 mag 145 grain Silvertip.

The 3 inch barreled Model 13 had a full length ejector. Prior to the adoption of the model 13, there were some model 10's (38 Special) with 2.5" barrels carried by agents.
However, Agents were permitted to purchase and carry privately owned guns if the armorers approved them and they qualified with them. There were a quite a few 2.5" model 19's carried by agents and in the 1980's there were a few 2.5" 686's used.

The "Special" or "Unique to the Bureau" 38 loading was nothing more than the standard "FBI Load" (158gr, +P LSWCHP). I'm sure the "Bureau" told agents that the load was special FBI only ammunition because that's consistent with internal Bureau brainwashing but the load was the same one commercially available everywhere.

[Thumbcocker]

"If I am correct, Power Pistol has been discontinued and replaced by AutoComp"

NOOOOOOO