38 spl "FBI load"

[35remington]

Gents, if you truly want to “pursue the FBI load” in terms of what it does in short barrels, you will target the 800-850 fps range, because that is what the FBI load does. A hollow point that performs similarly would also be needed.

It has never gone faster than that from shorty barrels. If you want to go faster that is up to you, but that is something entirely different and is not FBI load duplication.

That it made its reputation from short barrels despite giving speeds that some claim are inadequate does not change the fact that the good reputation is still present. Results matter most, more so than anything else.

As I said before, wasting the capacity of a five or six shot revolver on a low percentage barrier shot is a waste of ammo when apportioning your fire is critically needed. Used as is prudent a snubbie revolver is a human shooting tool, not a barrier breacher.

If a barrier is present and you are armed with a revolver use the barrier to create distance instead of shooting it. Don’t shoot people in cars. Run away, drive off, or let them emerge before shooting. If someone is behind a wall or door get out of there or wait until you can see them before shooting.

Not enough ammo is present to waste it on low percentage shots.

[Petrol & Powder]

Gents, if you truly want to “pursue the FBI load” in terms of what it does in short barrels, you will target the 800-850 fps range, because that is what the FBI load does. A hollow point that performs similarly would also be needed.

It has never gone faster than that from shorty barrels. If you want to go faster that is up to you, but that is something entirely different and is not FBI load duplication.

That it made its reputation from short barrels despite giving speeds that some claim are inadequate does not change the fact that the good reputation is still present. Results matter most, more so than anything else.

...........

/\ I agree completely and have been saying that actual results are what matters.

And furthermore, I still say that getting a 158 grain bullet above 900 fps in a 2" revolver barrel likely involves exceeding SAAMI +P pressures.

My testing was over 20 years ago and I didn't have Power Pistol available, so I can't say for certain but I'm skeptical. With the factory loads and the reloads with the powders I did have, I never got close to 900 fps .

I agree with 35Remington - velocity isn't the only yardstick you want to use. Actual results are what matters.

[USSR]

Gents, if you truly want to “pursue the FBI load” in terms of what it does in short barrels, you will target the 800-850 fps range, because that is what the FBI load does.

And I disagree completely. Don't settle for the neutered current FBI Load, go for the original FBI Load. 875 - 900fps is easily attainable with the short barrel snubbies, IF you go with the right powder.

Don

[USSR]

Actual results are what matters.

Couldn't agree more.

Don

[35remington]

USSR, as I said, the fastest the FBI load ever went from shorty barrels was 850 no matter what era it is from. There is really nothing to disagree with. The FBI load never, ever got 900 fps from short barrels.

[Petrol & Powder]

And I disagree completely. Don't settle for the neutered current FBI Load, go for the original FBI Load. 875 - 900fps is easily attainable with the short barrel snubbies, IF you go with the right powder.

Don

I don't think the "original" FBI load is any different than the current "FBI Load", nor do I think that load reaches 875 fps out of a 2" barrel.
And it isn't important how fast it goes, but it is important is if penetrates far enough to stop the attack.
Pretty mushroomed bullets look good in ammunition ads but mean nothing when someone is trying to bury a machete in your head. You will not care what the bullet looks like when some surgeon or medical examiner pulls it out of someone else. But you will care if it expands too soon and stops penetrating.

[USSR]

You're wrong, and I will defer to Larry:

with 150 - 158 gr bullets 820 - 850 fps was considered "standard" velocity back in the day. Original Winchester and Federal "FBI 150 LSWDHP +Ps were originally 950+ fps from a 4" barrel and just under the SAAMI MAP for pressure.

Bullseye will not get you to true +P velocity and remain at or under SAAMI +P pressure MAP with 150 gr cast bullets. In the 38 SPL with 150 gr cast bullets 5.5 gr Unique will be right under the SAAMI MAP and get you 950 fps out of a 4" barreled revolver and just under 900 out of 2 - 2.5" barreled revolvers.

Don

[35remington]

950 fps from a 4 inch with a 158 is 850 fps from a 1 7/8-2 inch. I’ve quite extensively chronographed enough 38’s in various barrel lengths to establish that conclusively.

May want to ponder that a bit.

That the FBI load did not exceed around 850 fps from 1 7/8-2 inch barrels no matter what era it was made is as factual information as you will get. We are not discussing what handloads do, but rather what the FBI factory loads did in the past as well as do now.

Confusing the two does not make any kind of point that is relevant.

[Outpost75]

^^^Correct^^^ based upon my own chronograph tests.

[USSR]

We are not discussing what handloads do, but rather what the FBI factory loads did in the past as well as do now.

Okay, let's explore whether there is a difference between the old and the new with someone who has chronographed them both, which obviously you have not done. While the test handgun had a 6" barrel, the fact is that the old and the new FBI Load are different and a velocity difference will show in the 2" barrels as well. May want to ponder that a bit.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/36...s-old-one.html

Don

[35remington]

I have chronographed both the old and the new, which you did not understand. By all means do not take my experienced word for it.

Here is a test more relevant than yours, where both old and new FBI loads were chronographed in the present day in old and new lots, and also where reference was made to conducting the same test in 1980. In a 2 inch barrel. As well as other barrel lengths.

Look to see what the factory SWCHP Plus P’s got in old and new lots.

http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/handg...raph-test.html

By all means, when you find a chronograph test wherein someone claims significantly different velocity from 1 7/8-2” barrels using factory FBI loads, or where you find it with your own results, feel free to post it.

The fact of the matter is whether old or new FBI factory loads are used, velocity does not exceed 850 fps from 1 7/8-2” barrels. 850 fps is the highest attainable velocity I have found in my own use or reading of other’s tests. Lows approximate 800 fps.

No one said velocities did not vary between lots.

What was said, again, was velocity did not exceed 850 fps no matter what lot or era was tested of factory FBI loads from short barrels described.

If you wish to take issue with what I said, be sure to address what I am saying rather than what you want your discussion to be about.

[Outpost75]

I have chronographed X38SPD production from the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s as well as recent production under the Winchester Ranger label LE ammo from 2010. Using the same four personal guns, 2" SP101, Speed Six 2-3/4", Colt 2" Detective Special, Ruger 4" Service Six. No difference other than normal lot-to-lot variation.

Cylinder gap is important. None of the 2" guns averaged 900 fps. Range was 830-850 fps, A 2-3/4" gunat minimum assembly tolerance pass 0.003"/hold 0.004" will not quite make 900 fps and will average about +30 fps over a 2" gun with same gap. Then you must consider a minimum loss of 10 fps for each 0.001" increase in cylinder gap above Mean Assembly Tolerance.

This is reality. When at Ruger in the 1980s we ran this test with ten guns of each barrel length, firing Winchester, Remington and Federal ammo, guns set to min tolerance gap with .38 Special cylinders, then recylindered to .357, shot again, then faced off barrels to increase cylinder gap from 0.004" to 0.008" and shot again. A .357 chamber also shoots about 20 fps slower than same gun and ammo with .38Special chamber. Proprietary test data was never published, but I was the project engineer and can tell you it was done and is so. Similar test was done with 110-grain Q4070 +P+ by Customs and Border Patrol at FLETC in 1984-85 with similar results. I sent them the same 30 guns and extra cylinders to test.

[35remington]

Incidentally, the 960 odd fps the six inch revolver obtained in your link using the “fast lot” of factory ammo converts to about 810-830 fps from a 1 7/8-2” barrel, which handily makes my point.

Thanks.

[35remington]

Another thing to consider is this:

If the “hot” factory FBI loads attain 960 odd fps from a six inch barrel, does approaching or equaling that velocity from a 1 7/8”-2” barrel indicate mild pressures?

Anybody advise that for an aluminum gun, even if it is rated for Plus P?

I would hope not. Taken in that context, it is not hard to understand why I am critical of printed sources that do, which brings us in a roundabout way to the referenced article mentioned earlier.

[Forrest r]

From Forrest r's prior post #191:

"At the end of the day I tested:
h&g #51 hpswc 150gr
358439 hpswc 158gr
cramer hunter hpfn 158gr
cramer #26 hpswc 158gr
358156 hpgcswc 150gr
Mihec 640 hpfn 158gr
Mihec hbwc turned backwards 148gr
home swaged jacketed hp 150gr
358431 hbswc 158gr
raphine hbfn 150gr"

the 358156 HP bullet is highlighted in red

So we're not talking about a 158gr bullet but rather a 150 grain bullet. Is that the actual weight of the bullet tested ?

The bullet casts out at +/- 148gr with the 10bhn alloy . Adding a al gc and either lube or pc brings the weight up to 152/154gr. Use a copper gc and the weight is in the 153/154gr weight.
Cast with 6/7bhn alloy and you can add a grain to the numbers above.
Cast with the short pin and you can add 2 grains to the #'s above.

Any of those bullets listed above will very in weight depending on the alloy, lube, coating/# of coats, gc's/types of gc's, etc.

You would think you already know things like this??? Perhaps that's why you can't get a load to do more than 900fps in a snubnosed revolver.

[Forrest r]

The fbi load in snubnosed revolvers:

That ammo was never intended to be used in snubnosed revolvers. The standard lead rn 158gr/850fps 38spl used in issued 4" bbl'd firearms flat out sucked. Enter the the 158gr hpswc p+ ammo. It was used in snubnosed revolvers simply because it was either issued or there. Which brings the snubnosed ammo right back to the 850fps/38spl/ammo that sucks.

It's hard to grasp but here goes:
fbi ='s 4" bbl/950fps/158gr lead hpswc
Treasury ='s 2"bbl/1050fps/110gr jhp

Just because something is laying around and that's all their was doesn't mean it's worth using. When someone says the "fbi" ammo did extremely well in snubnosed revolver, it makes me laugh.

This thread changes every time the wind blows.
4 or 5 pages back 800fps was the magic # and good enough. Now it's 850fps.
went from 890fps for the "fbi" load to 960fps

With ALL this testing over the years going on you'd think there would be a little more consistence in some of the posters threads. Outpost75 and larry have posted the same #'s for years on this topic, others well. The wind just changed, wounder what it will be today???

[Petrol & Powder]

The bullet casts out at +/- 148gr with the 10bhn alloy . Adding a al gc and either lube or pc brings the weight up to 152/154gr. Use a copper gc and the weight is in the 153/154gr weight.
Cast with 6/7bhn alloy and you can add a grain to the numbers above.
Cast with the short pin and you can add 2 grains to the #'s above.

Any of those bullets listed above will very in weight depending on the alloy, lube, coating/# of coats, gc's/types of gc's, etc.

You would think you already know things like this??? Perhaps that's why you can't get a load to do more than 900fps in a snubnosed revolver.

I do know things like that, no sarcasm needed. And once again you're showing your anger when others question your results.

So, did you use the long HP pin to reduce the weight of the projectile? Did you use a 10 BHn alloy ? Did you actually weigh the projectile used in that test? Was it actually 154 grains or closer to 150 ?

It may be possible to achieve 900+fps with 158 gr (+/- 1gr) projectile fired from a 2" revolver barrel and stay within SAAMI +P pressures, however I remain skeptical based on my own experience.

I say this because we're not talking about 10 or 20 fps here. From my memory, most of my tests landed in the 800-850 range and I do not recall anything getting close to 900 fps in a 2" revolver with 158gr bullets - and I did weigh my bullets. If had been getting velocities in the 880-890 fps range, I wouldn't be so skeptical now.


I did not have Power Pistol available to me during my tests in the mid 1990's and maybe that's the key.

So that we don't get crosswise here, allow me to say that I don't question the velocities you've published. However I do question the pressures and bullet weights that were used to achieve those velocities. If the pressures are higher than 20K psi and/or the bullets are significantly lighter than 158 grains - we are no longer comparing apples to apples.

[Livin_cincy]

I put (4) dashes of Tobasco into my handloads using TrailBoss and I get really hot FBI loads.

I get about 3400 FPS out of a 2" Snubby... Roughly the velocity of a Flying Pig when is buzzes over a Unicorn Herd causing a stampede and this upsets Bigfoot, the Good Shepherd.

[35remington]

Given that the FBI load did and does 800-850 fps from short barrels over its production run, and finding a lot that ran on the high end of the range was fairly rare, suggesting the numbers have varied from 800 to 960 fps from the posters here is deliberately misstating what was actually said by mixing longer barrel velocities with shorter barrel results.

Suggesting that 800-850 fps is acceptable from the FBI load is reasonable because that is the velocity it got from short barrels during the time it was making its reputation. Due to powder position shifts in the case even the hottest lots will come out the barrel at 800 fps and slower when the gun is drawn and the powder is near the bullet. The load still worked under such conditions.

That the FBI load did have a good reputation even when fired from shorter barrels is a matter of some record. Apparently those on the receiving end did not find it all that laughable from short barrels and ceased engaging in their unlawful activities in such a way that it was considered effective.

Since that comes from those who have actually used it rather than those who have not, I give that the credibility it is due. As was said earlier, results are definitive.

Better to base judgements on what is known from actual usage than opinion. That seems to be logically obvious.

[Outpost75]

Mental masaturbation takes less effort than gathering and evaluating repetitive, empirical data.

Colt Det. Special, .38 Spl. 2", 0.006" cylinder gap, Federal 38G (1982) 833 fps, 23 Sd
Colt Det. Special, .38 Spl. 2", 0.006" cylinder gap, Winchester X38SPD (1984) 831 fps, 10 Sd
Ruger Service Six .38 Spl. 4", 0.006" cylinder gap, Federal 38G (1982) 901 fps, 12 Sd
Ruger Service Six .38 Spl. 4", 0.006" cylinder gap, Winchester X38SPD (1984) 920 fps, 21 Sd
Ruger Service Six .38 Spl. 4", 0.006" cylinder gap Olin Q4070 110-gr. +P+ (1984) 1110 fps, 23 Sd
Ruger SP101 .38 Spl. 2", 0.003" cylinder gap, Federal 38G (1982) 869 fps, 9 Sd
Ruger SP101 .38 Spl. 2", 0.003" cylinder gap, Winchester X38SPD (1984), 857 fps, 14 Sd
Ruger SP101 .38 Spl. 2", 0.003" cylinder gap, Olin Q4070 110-gr.+P+ (1984) 1079 fps, 13 Sd