38 spl "FBI load"

[Gunslinger1911]

Just WOW ! The knowledge base of this group is amazing ! Thanks to all for the input.
It's a mid 70's shrouded ejector. Excellent shape. Was my fathers till he died.
My daughter "permanently" borrowed it. lol She isn't a fan of the 9mm mini XD her husband and I bought her.
And it was "Papaw's" !
Cast some dead soft 150 swc hp's. PC'ing with Smoke's pink (just 'cause - daughter).
Probably lube anyway when I size - again, dead soft.
Lots of practice with "normal" pressure, couple cylinders hot each range session.

Again, thank you all for the input - keep it coming !

[9.3X62AL]

None of my currently-owned 38 Specials are built for use of +P ammunition, so I got out of loading the stuff when my last capable example went down the road 10+ years ago. The small amount of +P 38 ammo I had on hand got run through one of the 357s and the resulting brass got put up with standard pressure charges and either Lymans #358477 or #358429. I have some Remington HBWCs on hand that might find their way into cases sometime, mostly to see how well they shoot from a Colt OMT (1949) that was looking lonely and ignored in the safe a few days ago. I do load 357 brass with #358429 to 975-1000 FPS, and those are fun in my 686 x 4". I don't carry the 38 Special in harm's way, it is purely a target and small game hunting number for me. These "+P+" 38s in 357 brass DO IN jackrabbits very well, and in the 686 or the Bisley Blackhawk are docile and accurate.

[FergusonTO35]

I see no reason to feed one of these guns anything other than mild ammo. If you believe you need something stronger, get a gun that is made to handle it. Simple as that. Colt even makes a +P capable steel frame Cobra nowadays if you just gotta have that pony.

[Petrol & Powder]

Yours looks like a clone of mine which was tweaked by Sandy Garrett at NoVA Gun Works.

Maybe we should "breed" them

They breed all on their own

When I put the Detective Special in the safe with a 2" S&W Model 12:Attachment 218858

they did breed and a Ruger SPNY appeared:

Attachment 218859

You can't leave them in the safe alone, they produce all kinds of mutts !

[Tatume]

I see no reason to feed one of these guns anything other than mild ammo. If you believe you need something stronger, get a gun that is made to handle it. Simple as that. Colt even makes a +P capable steel frame Cobra nowadays if you just gotta have that pony.

This may be true for continuous practice, but for day-to-day carry my aluminum framed, , non-+P rated 38 Special is hands-down superior. I do not shoot it with +P, and if I ever (God forbid) have to shoot it, that one to a few shots will not hurt it as much as I was about to be hurt.

[RU shooter]

This thread brings me back to my stupid years when I was early 20's when I had a near mint condition early unshrouded alloy colt agent and sold it a few months later to get a the latest and greatest at the moment 9mm the then new 3913 . Wish I could have a do over on that deal geeesh !

[Gunslinger1911]

Dang, wish I still had my 3913, best little 9mm I ever had.

[Bigslug]

You could reach for recycled shotgun slugs (@ 40-1 / 8BHN in my experience) or the cores of jacketed scroungings melted (@ 25-1 or 30-1 / 9 BHN) and have enough tin on board to fill fairly decently.

In the matrix of enough penetration out of a snubby and not beating up the gun, I'd be inclined to stick with the softer metal SWC or WFN , possibly lose the hollowpoint and run a bit softer load.

[USSR]

Have been working with the FBI Load for several years now. My revolver is a 2.5" S&W Model 19. Using published load data, I got 845fps with AA#5 and 945fps with HS-6. You have to use powders in this burn rate, and not something faster, to reach a good velocity without bumping up against pressure constraints. Regarding alloy, keep antimony content to a minimum. My alloy is 97% Pb, 2.5% Sn, and only 0.5% Sb. The bullet in the middle is the AA#5 load, and the bullet on the right is the HS-6 load. As you can see, there is no fragmenting, and the bullets are fully expanded and retain 100% of their weight.

Don

Hollowpoint Testing.jpg (73.7 KB)

[tazman]

Have been working with the FBI Load for several years now. My revolver is a 2.5" S&W Model 19. Using published load data, I got 845fps with AA#5 and 945fps with HS-6. You have to use powders in this burn rate, and not something faster, to reach a good velocity without bumping up against pressure constraints. Regarding alloy, keep antimony content to a minimum. My alloy is 97% Pb, 2.5% Sn, and only 0.5% Sb. The bullet in the middle is the AA#5 load, and the bullet on the right is the HS-6 load. As you can see, there is no fragmenting, and the bullets are fully expanded and retain 100% of their weight.

Don

Hollowpoint Testing.jpg (73.7 KB)

Very impressive results.

[Livin_cincy]

The bullet in the middle is the AA#5 load, and the bullet on the right is the HS-6 load. As you can see, there is no fragmenting, and the bullets are fully expanded and retain 100% of their weight.

Don

Hollowpoint Testing.jpg (73.7 KB)

Thanks for sharing.

Just a few questions.

Did you shoot into water or gelatin ?

Did you shoot thru any clothing like barrier(s) ?

Sometimes HP's get clogged and do not open so I am curious.

[scattershot]

P&P: Those are stunning grips on that Model 12, who made them?

[USSR]

Thanks for sharing.

Just a few questions.

Did you shoot into water or gelatin ?

Did you shoot thru any clothing like barrier(s) ?

Sometimes HP's get clogged and do not open so I am curious.

I shoot into water-soaked newsprint. Have found water alone to be too hard, and ballistic gelatin is expensive and a PITA. Thought about putting some cloth up, but was more concerned about whether the hollowpoint "petals" would fragment in any way. As you can see, the hollowpoints are not exactly small, so it's hard for me to imagine that they would become completely filled up with material and not expand.

Don

[Livin_cincy]

I shoot into water-soaked newsprint. Don

I would think water soaked news print would clog a hollow point if it was prone to it.

[gregtu]

Wow!... I agree with the OP on the fact that this is a great site with lots of experienced and expert advice. I'll be honest, that my only 38 special is a Chiefs special that was passed down from my grandfather. I generally just shoot wadcutters from a few molds that I have. I don't have a chrono, nor do I figure it to be my SD gun, but it really shoots a good 158 wadcutter and (about) the same in an HP. I think even at lower pressures and velocity, a bad guy will not do so well. Just jumping in to an over-me conversation that interests me.

[FergusonTO35]

This may be true for continuous practice, but for day-to-day carry my aluminum framed, , non-+P rated 38 Special is hands-down superior. I do not shoot it with +P, and if I ever (God forbid) have to shoot it, that one to a few shots will not hurt it as much as I was about to be hurt.

10-4. I can't deal with much recoil in a handgun, so I take the opposite approach. I feed my S&W 637 a Lyman 148 grain full wadcutter over 3.1 grains Bullseye for a consistent 712 fps. This load is super accurate and has mild recoil, meaning I have a much better chance of putting two slugs in the bad guy where they need to go. I practice single and double action, with one and two hands. Every test I have seen indicates mild wadcutters have comparable penetration to pricey JHP's, including the FBI load and Speer 135 grain short barrel load. The big flat nose and sharp shoulders should create a nice wound channel too.

[Petrol & Powder]

P&P: Those are stunning grips on that Model 12, who made them?

Thanks, they were made by Craig Spegel and all of the credit goes to him.

[USSR]

I would think water soaked news print would clog a hollow point if it was prone to it.

Hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense.

Don

[charlie b]

Wet newsprint does not 'clog' HP bullets. They expand nicely. You would do well to test with denim, at least two layers. 30 yrs ago Mm father-in-law and I did a lot of testing to find HP for short barrel .45 ACP loads. We used two layers of denim or one of denim and one of flannel. Just about any HP lead bullet would clog with denim and not expand at the sub 1000fps velocities. Even the Silver tips and Gold Dots back then would clog and not expand when fired from a short barrel pistol.

Many modern factory HP designs do expand even when fired through clothing.

The good thing about the SWC design is that even if it does not expand the shoulder cuts a nice round channel that 'bleeds' easily.

I do not fire self defense loads from many of my guns on a regular basis. I fire them to check for functioning reliability, but, that's it. All my practice loads are below max. Semi-autos get loads that funtion reliably.

And, no, I do not carry reloads in my self defense pistols. Factory stuff performs better in the wide range of conditions that you might face.

[Petrol & Powder]

With the right load the 38 Special snubnose performs way above expectations. On paper its performance looks to be rather mundane but in the real world it has an incredibly good track record.

It is important to understand why the 38 Special performs above expectations.
In a snubnose, the 158 grain projectile will reach into the 800 fps range when pushed by +P pressures, but that's about all one can hope for in terms of speed. What makes that projectile so effective is the fact that around the 150-160 grain weight range the bullet penetrates well in the corresponding 750-825 fps velocity range. When given the correct alloy and bullet profile, that effectiveness can be maximized.
You can trade mass for speed but the sweet spot seems to be around the 150-160 grain weight in terms of achieving penetration with that diameter bullet. When we go heavier the speed drops off quickly and when we go lighter the penetration suffers.
Speer went lighter and faster with their 135 grain Gold Dot "Short Barrel" load but had to use a jacketed hollowpoint to delay expansion in order to achieve the needed penetration. There's no free lunch in the world of physics.

The traditional 158 grain lead round nose bullet was notoriously ineffective in the 38 Special. The only thing that made that projectile work at all was precise bullet placement. Many savvy cops knew the flat nosed full wadcutter was more likely to stop an attacker than the round nosed bullet and many cops resorted to carrying those full WC loads.

Eventually science overcame tradition and we started to see more effective 38 Special self-defense loads. In that endeavor we started to put together features that we knew were likely to improve the performance of a 38 Special cartridge. Features such as SWC profile, soft alloys, hollowpoints and as much velocity as we could safety impart to the projectile. In the end, it turns out the combination of a soft LSWC hollowpoint driven at +P velocities was very good at achieving desired results.
There was some tweeking of details such as the size of the hollowpoint cavity and the particular alloy but for the most part the formula for the "FBI Load" was established by the mid 1970's. What came next was sort of a fortunate fluke. It turns out the "FBI Load" works well in a 4" revolver AND a 2" snubnose. In fact, it was one of the few rounds that worked even when a short barrel robbed it of some velocity.
Even at around 800 fps the slug would reliably penetrate and it would often expand at those lower velocities. When it didn't expand, it still performed well.
The mechanism seems to be that the combination of 158 gains, soft lead SWC, hollowpoint at +P velocities works over a large range of velocities and the lower end of those velocities fall within what a snubnose is capable of achieving.

Lots of people attempted to improve upon that formula but for about the last 40+ years it seems to be holding its own. You can re-invent the wheel but..... in the end you'll have something that looks suspiciously like .... a wheel.