38 spl "FBI load"

[Char-Gar]

If I ever suspect I may be attacked by bowling pins......I'll be sure to arm myself with the appropriate weapon and cartridge before I leave the house.

I once cleared a table full of them pretty darn quick with a full auto AK 47. It kicked them off the table, but didn't kill any of them. There were no through and through holes either, but scars and bruises. If you are going to kill one grave yard dead, better bring at least a 458 Win. Magnum.

[Petrol & Powder]

I once cleared a table full of them pretty darn quick with a full auto AK 47. It kicked them off the table, but didn't kill any of them. There were no through and through holes either, but scars and bruises. If you are going to kill one grave yard dead, better bring at least a 458 Win. Magnum.

I'll keep that mind but so far it hasn't been a problem

[dubber123]

I only had a few to check, but the 5.8 grains of Power Pistol load with a 158 gr boolit I mentioned reading about made just about 50 fps. less than the 900 fps. mark, averaging 849 fps. from my 1-7/8" S&W 640.

[35remington]

Sometimes which 158 grain bullet has a bearing on the velocity obtained as well.

[Petrol & Powder]

I only had a few to check, but the 5.8 grains of Power Pistol load with a 158 gr boolit I mentioned reading about made just about 50 fps. less than the 900 fps. mark, averaging 849 fps. from my 1-7/8" S&W 640.

/\ I think that's about right /\ and likely about max in that 2" (2ish inch) barrel with that bullet and within SAAMI limits.

[Petrol & Powder]

I don't know where my notebooks are and I've moved a few times since; but when I was testing snubnose loads, 158 grain bullets struggled to get into the mid 800 fps range.

The Alliant data I linked a few posts back showed a 158 grain LSWC with 6 grains of Power Pistol at 1037 fps in a 6 inch barrel. I don't know if that was a vented barrel or not. That falls right in line with 849 fps in a 1 7/8" revolver barrel (with a cylinder gap) and 5.8 grains of Power Point.

[Gunslinger1911]

For the bowling pin through and through, I'm thinkin 300 win mag with a solid copper bullet ? Medium frontal area, lots velocity.

[dubber123]

Sometimes which 158 grain bullet has a bearing on the velocity obtained as well.

Indeed it does, amongst a few other variables, which is why I didn't use some of the heavy walled military cases I have which can add a few fps. over other cases. The boolit I chose was a 158 gr. SWC HP from my Lyman mold. Cases were single cannelure RP, Winchester standard primer. The 640 used is a pretty tight example with good specs.

I have seen 900 fps. from this gun, but IF this 5.8 Power Pistol load is indeed 17,000 Psi, and a standard pressure loading, I would have to exceed that in my particular gun/load combo to make it happen again.

[FergusonTO35]

800fps is only sensible until it hits something hard/solid. Then it's just another under powered load/bullet combo that someone learned the hard way why they never should of used it in the 1st place.

A wc in a snubnosed 38spl would be my absolute last choice for sd. If more people would do some actual testing with them, they would quit recommending them. Going into anything soft they are no better or worse than any other bullet. Start adding in things like car windshields, hardwood trim, solid doors,etc. WC's in snubnosed revolvers loaded with standard pressure loads flat out suck.

A 12bhn 148gr hbwc doing 850fps out of a 6" bbl'd ppc revolver shooting bowling pins @ 50ft.
[IMG][/IMG]

Same bullet/load has a hard time going thru 3/4" trim/plaster walls or 3/4" trim/drywall, 1 3/4" solid core doors. Car windshields are a joke, tons of ricochets along with forget about car doors with the glass down.

Same bullet pictured above recovered from that bowling pin.
[IMG][/IMG]

There's trade-offs to everything. For some odd reason the 2" bbl'd 357's tend to out preform the 4" bbl'd 38spl's. Perhaps it has to do with velocity???
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...cs-test/#38spl

I have been using logs for informal penetration testing for years. My experience is that wood is very effective at stopping lead bullets regardless of cartridge. The wood fibers catch the soft metal and slow it down in a hurry. If you are using a high velocity lead bullet such as a .30-30 the bullet will penetrate more but show significant deformation and may even fragment. FMJ does a better job of penetrating, however one notices that the bullets are often flattened lengthwise from being compressed by wood fibers.

[Outpost75]

Is Power Pistol still available? I've been using 5.0 grains of AutoComp with a 158-160-grain lead bullet in. 38Special for +P, giving results similar to Unique, but the finer particle size will measure uniformly in the Dillon machine.

4.2 grains of current Alliant Bullseye is my +P for bullets of that weight class in the nubbies shorter than 2.5".

[tazman]

I can see where a police officer might need to penetrate a car door or windshield to stop a perp. I haven't been able to think of a defensive situation I might run into where I would need a bullet to penetrate anything harder than a person's clothing before entering their body.
I don't expect I will ever need to shoot through a car to defend myself. If I have time to draw and aim at a car coming at me, I have time to get out of the way.

[texasnative46]

tazman,


AGREED 100%. = I retired from LE in 11/2006 & no longer have to "stay & fight". = These days, I'm a "cornered cat"- Try to corner me & I'll scratch/bite/claw & DEPART.

yours, tex

[JBinMN]

Is Power Pistol still available?

Yes.


Graf & sons, Midsouth, Powder valley, Bruno Shooter Supply, etc. have it in stock.

[Forrest r]

Apparently a lot people have never shot bowling pins. Any heavy 357 load with a rn or swc cast bullet that weigh 158gr or more will penetrate a pin. Shot countless 1000's of pins with a 357/358311/1250fps load. Was nothing to see the nose of the bullet sticking out the back of the pin when you hit the pin where your supposed to to drvie them off the table. Namely in the trademark (see picture above/post #91).

By all accounts????? Great more new math.
By all accounts the fbi/chicago/treasury load that skeeter developed with keith bullets was designed for 4" and longer bbl's. It was never designed for snub nosed revolvers and is an extremely poor performer in +/- 2" bbl'd 38spl's. In post #91 there is a link showing tests with in 2" bbl'd revolvers using the "factory fbi" loads. All 3 sucked!!!

Barriers:
I don't have a crystal ball nor do I turn a blind eye toward the fact that. If I'm out of the house and carrying, a large % of that carry time will be in a vehicle. Nor do I turn a blind eye to the fact that the house I live in is older with thick plaster walls (5 1/2" and 7") along with solid core doors and 3/4" hardwood trim. I have a choice to either turn a blind eye to those facts or test and choose a bullet/load that mitigates the possibility that a bullet might actually get stopped in such things.

Anyway, if don't spend time in a vehicle with a cc. Then don't worry about the possibility you might actually have to shoot into 1.
If you never have a need to shoot into a door/wall/furniture, then by all means rely on mouse fart loads & shot placement.

Myself I've carried a snubnosed 44spl for 30+ years for a reason. Even with the 44spl, I don't use mouse fart wc target loads or standard pressure loads. Nor do I use mouse fart/standard loads in the 1911's/45acp. Or the snubnosed 357's. The misses wanted a 9mm and 38spl. When not carried they are around the house and hopefully I'll never have to pick 1 up let alone use it. For me it's:

9mm 124gr/1050fps minimun
38spl 158gr/950fps minimum
357 158gr/1150fps minimum
44spl 200gr/950fps minimum
45acp 225gr/950fps minimum

[Forrest r]

I wouldn't of even bothered to post in this thread. Just get tired of all the posts about:
hot loads can't be handled
shot placement is everything
parroting of decades old ideas/articles

My 50+ year old misses has no problem handling a 16oz snubnosed 38spl with 158gr p+ loads. If you can't, that's called a clue and you should consider finding something else.

A 2" bbl'd revolver with fixed sights & shot placement should always be in the same sentence. Now that you have you bullet/load dialed in to hit the poa @ 7yds what do you do @20yds? The reality of it is the snubnose is 1 step up from a knife and 12" groups/body shots and using the same firearm/load @ point blank range to 25yds is better than most people that own them can do.

A guy writes an article about taking cheap ammo/firearm into the woods for a last ditch survival light weight pack and it becomes internet lore and has been parroted ever since. Anyone that buys into that bs ought to try hunting with a revolver let alone a fixed sighted snubnosed revolver.

I see Pearce's name keeps coming up in this thread about an article from 2012. I'm not going to defend any of his articles or findings. But I will say that his findings can be bought for a yearly fee ($$$). Just a wild guess, bbbbuuuuuuuutttttttt, they probable have things like test equipment, a registered business that pays taxes/bwc/ins. You would think that if they sold a bunch of reloading info that did damage to firearms/people they wouldn't be in business for decades.

to the op:
I wouldn't give that old colt a steady diet of hot loads. But then again I wouldn't give anyone's children a hand full of 38spl/wc/loads to use for sd either.

[FergusonTO35]

I am honest in admitting I can't shoot strong loads in handguns, so I'll take accuracy and quick follow up shots any day.

[Petrol & Powder]

Forrest r, you seem to be developing some anger oven this thread and I'm not sure why. You are entitled to your opinions but that doesn't mean others are obligated to adopt your opinions.
I'm going to take a bit of exception to part of what you claim. The FBI Load actually does work rather well in 2" revolvers. It may have been designed for 4" barrels but it turned out to be a good performer in the 2" barrel. Its good performance in 2" barrels may have been a fluke but it was a positive one.

Forrest r wrote, ".....By all accounts the fbi/chicago/treasury load that skeeter developed with keith bullets was designed for 4" and longer bbl's. It was never designed for snub nosed revolvers and is an extremely poor performer in +/- 2" bbl'd 38spl's. In post #91 there is a link showing tests with in 2" bbl'd revolvers using the "factory fbi" loads. All 3 sucked!!!"

I disagree with your assertion that the FBI Load is a "poor performer in.... 2" barreled ....38 Specials". To the contrary, the FBI Load has a long track record of good results in snubnosed revolvers. I'm also not certain that the FBI Load was developed by Skeeter [Skelton] although I'm sure he would have experimented with variations of the FBI Load.

In that link you included in post #91 - the tests you refer to actually show the 158 gr LSWCHP loads all performing very well. Personally I think Lucky gunner is in the business of selling ammunition and I'm somewhat suspicious of their data but even their own data seems to contradict what you claim.
Those 158 gr LSWCHP loads all penetrated in the desired range. The lack of a perfectly mushroomed bullet means little. We're not trying to make pretty mushrooms, we're trying to stop someone from harming us. Expansion is just the icing on the cake and perfect mushrooms have little value outside of marketing.

The FBI Load is OLD and it is low tech. That doesn't mean it's bad and should be abandoned.

[FergusonTO35]

All the formal testing I have read about indicates that sedate full wadcutters have comparable penetration to +P, often more. Here is one example where the Federal Gold Medal match load fored from an LCR easily penetrates four layers of denim and 18 inches of gel:

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2...8-special.html

And, results for the Remington, Winchester, and Federal FBI loads fired out of the same gun. Interestingly, the FBI loads essentially turned themselves into full wadcutters upon impact!

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2...rain-lead.html

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2...rain-lead.html

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2...rain-lead.html

[ReloaderFred]

I see the Treasury Load referenced in one of the posts. The Treasury Load was a completely different animal, consisting of a 110 gr. JHP bullet marked +P+ on the headstamp. There is no +P+ SAAMI standard, and it was only done to show that it was a hotter than +P load. Departments who used the Treasury Load had to sign a liability waiver before Winchester would sell them the ammunition. Our County Counsel wouldn't let the Sheriff sign it, so we opted for the Silver Tip when it was finally released by Winchester.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[35remington]

I find that cast wadcutters approximating the 705-780 fps range do 21-24 inches in gelatin or its equivalent. 158 Hp’s of swaged persuasion that do not expand much go 18-19 inches.

158 HP’s as described above that expand to the classic mushroom shape and fold their expanded diameter to envelop the shank of the bullet run closer to the 13 inch range.

As I said earlier, if one is using the limited ammo capacity of the revolver on a low percentage shot through a barrier even with a 357, that person is committing an error of judgement in my opinion.

Shooting at a person in a car or behind a wall when you could be getting out of there instead seems second choice to me. If they are behind a barrier wait for them to emerge as they are a greater threat then, and more likely to injure you with their own fire.

As I said, the number of civilian defensive shootings I have heard of, and I read a lot, that involved the need to perforate hard barriers to defend oneself approaches zero. That is why I do what I do and believe what I believe.

The FBI load does, in fact, have a good reputation from short barrels.