38 spl "FBI load"

[texasnative46]

ReloaderFred,

Do you happen to know what the actual power & charge was for the so-called Winchester "Treasury Load"?
(I've, over the last decades, seen at least a half-dozen & different "theories" but NO facts.)

yours, tex

[Outpost75]

ReloaderFred,

Do you happen to know what the actual power & charge was for the so-called Winchester "Treasury Load"?
(I've, over the last decades, seen at least a half-dozen & different "theories" but NO facts.)

yours, tex

The Q4070 used noncanister powder which doesn't correspond to any of the powders available to hand loaders.

The ammo I have from that era gives 1040 fps from a 2-3/4" Ruger Speed Six. I have a "recipe" which matches that velocity using 231 powder, using the Winchester 110-gr. JHP component bullet, Winchester brass and WSP primer, but I won't post it here, because it exceeds published +P data substantially.

Attachment 219237Attachment 219238

The rounds I have are marked "+P+" with the factory code and year, as in military practice.

Attachment 219239Attachment 219240

[tazman]

I am currently loading some full wadcutters that are designed to be loaded long. Lyman 358432. They allow for full powder charges the same as a standard SWC boolit.
I am getting 950fps from a 6 inch barrel using CFE Pistol with a full power standard pressure loading. I don't have a snubbie to try it in.
NOE makes a version of this boolit that is available in hollow point if desired.

[35remington]

An educated guess would put that at about, again, 800 fps from a 1 7/8” Smith.

[ReloaderFred]

ReloaderFred,

Do you happen to know what the actual power & charge was for the so-called Winchester "Treasury Load"?
(I've, over the last decades, seen at least a half-dozen & different "theories" but NO facts.)

yours, tex

I was rangemaster for our department at that time, and I was conversing with the vice president of Winchester Ammunition in East Alton, IL at the time. They would not disclose what the powder was, or the charge. I do have several boxes of that ammunition that I got from an agency that was using it, and it is warm.

They were trying to solve the issue of the aluminum jacket shedding from the Silver Tip bullet at the time, and when they finally did solve it, the vice president of the company called me and let me know that it was going to be immediately available. I specified it for our duty ammunition in both 9x19 and .38 Special, and every round fired into a bad guy performed as advertised. It was good ammunition. It's my understanding that they used something besides aluminum in the jackets later on, but those rounds were great that we had. All this occurred in the late 1970's, and our dept. had just over 600 sworn officers at that time.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[USSR]

Sometimes which 158 grain bullet has a bearing on the velocity obtained as well.

More importantly, sometimes which powder you use has a bearing on the velocity obtained.

Don

[35remington]

That was already implied.

Thing is, the developed pressure has a whole bunch to do with it as well.

[USSR]

As long as you use published data that falls within +P pressure limits, no problem. You've been saying you can't get more than 800fps from snubbies, and that's just not true IF YOU USE THE RIGHT POWDER!

Don

[Forrest r]

Forrest r, you seem to be developing some anger oven this thread and I'm not sure why. You are entitled to your opinions but that doesn't mean others are obligated to adopt your opinions.
I'm going to take a bit of exception to part of what you claim. The FBI Load actually does work rather well in 2" revolvers. It may have been designed for 4" barrels but it turned out to be a good performer in the 2" barrel. Its good performance in 2" barrels may have been a fluke but it was a positive one.

Forrest r wrote, ".....By all accounts the fbi/chicago/treasury load that skeeter developed with keith bullets was designed for 4" and longer bbl's. It was never designed for snub nosed revolvers and is an extremely poor performer in +/- 2" bbl'd 38spl's. In post #91 there is a link showing tests with in 2" bbl'd revolvers using the "factory fbi" loads. All 3 sucked!!!"

I disagree with your assertion that the FBI Load is a "poor performer in.... 2" barreled ....38 Specials". To the contrary, the FBI Load has a long track record of good results in snubnosed revolvers. I'm also not certain that the FBI Load was developed by Skeeter [Skelton] although I'm sure he would have experimented with variations of the FBI Load.

In that link you included in post #91 - the tests you refer to actually show the 158 gr LSWCHP loads all performing very well. Personally I think Lucky gunner is in the business of selling ammunition and I'm somewhat suspicious of their data but even their own data seems to contradict what you claim.
Those 158 gr LSWCHP loads all penetrated in the desired range. The lack of a perfectly mushroomed bullet means little. We're not trying to make pretty mushrooms, we're trying to stop someone from harming us. Expansion is just the icing on the cake and perfect mushrooms have little value outside of marketing.

The FBI Load is OLD and it is low tech. That doesn't mean it's bad and should be abandoned.

No anger at all, just get tired of reading about how bad the recoil is or how hard it is to get a load to do more than 800fps. You feel 800fps is good enough, go for it. I choose 950fps myself in 44spl. The misses uses 950fps in a 2" bbl'd 38spl.

[35remington]

It is not at all hard to get a load to do more than 800 fps. It is hard to get it to go much faster than 800 fps at standard pressures in a short barrel.

I am pretty sure I am quite a lot stronger than most women I come across, and my preference for milder recoil in a lightweight revolver for rapid shots delivered to the target in an accurate manner that have adequate penetration for the job does not make me a bit less manly.

I prefer to think of myself as experienced enough to know what works best for me. In expressing that preference I am making a suggestion to others who may be on the fence to give it a try. No more than that.

The fact that I am working with a proven load known to work (FBI or approximate) seems to affirm that thinking.

[USSR]

You say "standard pressures", but when talking about the FBI Load (as we are), we're not talking about standard pressure, but rather +P pressure.

Don

[Petrol & Powder]

SAAMI pressure limits for 38 Special:

Standard pressure 38 Special = max pressure of 17,000 psi

+P pressure 38 Special = max pressure of 20,000 psi

The "FBI Load" is a +P cartridge, specifically it is a 158 grain Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point [LSWCHP] bullet loaded in a casing to achieve +P pressures.

It is my belief that when fired from a 2" revolver barrel it is impossible to get a 158 grain LSWC to 900 fps if the pressures are within Standard (17,000 psi) 38 Special ranges.

I believe that it is highly unlikely that you can push a 158 grain LSWC beyond 900 fps from a 2" revolver barrel even when you use +P (20,000 psi) pressures.

Can you push a 158 grain LSWC faster than 900 fps out of a 2" revolver barrel ? The answer is yes but I think you will be over SAAMI limits for the +P 38 Special.

Notice the parameters listed above. 900 fps (not 800 fps), 2" barrel (not 2.5"), 158 grain projectile (not 148 or 135 or 110gr). Also note the different SAAMI limits (Standard and +P)

[35remington]

SR, in a practical sense, in a Plus P rated revolver short barreled of lightweight configuration, the FBI load does 820 fps or so or in that vicinity depending upon who makes it in factory loads. The recoil is not appreciably different than upper end standard pressure handloads that you can assemble.

The OP essentially asked about duplicating the FBI load with a handload. This does not require 950 fps or 900 fps, but rather around the 820 mentioned. A swaged HP running 900-950 fps is not the FBI load or its near duplicate but rather something quite different.

It should not be surprising that I suggested how to duplicate what he asked about duplicating rather than suggesting something considerably different.

[USSR]

The "FBI Load" is a +P cartridge, specifically it is a 158 grain Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point [LSWCHP] bullet loaded in a casing to achieve +P pressures.

It is my belief that when fired from a 2" revolver barrel it is impossible to get a 158 grain LSWC to 900 fps if the pressures are within Standard (17,000 psi) 38 Special ranges.

????? Since you just laid out the description of the FBI Load, and the title of this thread is "38 spl FBI Load", of what consequence is what velocity a standard .38 Special load capable of? Since we're talking about a 2" barrel in regards to the FBI Load, here is what a friend of mine gets with his using the same load data for which I get 945fps with my 2.5" barrel:

Winchester .38 Special +P case
158gr Hornady LSWC/HP
CCI 550 Primer (Magnum primer on this load)
7.0gr HS-6
COL 1.475"
4" M686 ---- 2" M640
927.0 -- AV --- 888.9
955.1 --- H --- 897.1
905.4 --- L ---- 876.6
49.7 ---- ES --- 20.5
20.7 ---- SD ---- 7.9
17.0 ---- AD ---- 5.9

Not quite 900fps, but a darn sight better than 800fps.

Don

[Petrol & Powder]

USSR wrote, ".....Since you just laid out the description of the FBI Load, and the title of this thread is "38 spl FBI Load", of what consequence is what velocity a standard .38 Special load capable of?..."

AND I will answer: Because people on this thread are ALL over the map with Standard Pressure and +P, Barrel lengths from 1 7/8" to 6", bullet weights from 110 to 200 grains and a few other variables.

So that is why I narrowed down what we are talking about on this thread.

And by the way, your data reinforces what I've been saying the entire time - a 158 gr projectile and a 2" barrel is unlikely to meet or exceed 900 fps while remaining within SAAMI specs for +P 38 Special loads. Your above post with an average velocity of 888 fps in a 2" barreled revolver is right in line with what I and others have been saying during this entire discussion.

[USSR]

Your above post with an average velocity of 888 fps in a 2" barreled revolver is right in line with what I and others have been saying during this entire discussion.

Um, "...I never got anywhere close to 900 fps out of a 2" barrel, even with +P pressures." Oh, and one thing you should know, published load data lists 7.2gr of HS-6 as maximum for +P load data. Ya think we might be able to pick up 12 more fps with 0.2gr more powder?

Don

[Petrol & Powder]

We are saying the SAME thing!!!!!

[35remington]

I guess the point I was making, stated explicitly again, was I am suggesting loads that do about what the FBI load does, as requested.

The “of what consequence is what a standard pressure load is capable of” is answered by stating that practice can be had that familiarizes the user with about what the FBI load feels like in terms of recoil without putting much strain on the gun. By running it at standard pressures. This allows higher volume shooting.

Practice all you want with standard pressure loads you assemble at low cost yourself, then load the real thing from the factory in the gun.

Cheap, simple, easy on the gun, and at the end of the day realistic practice has been accomplished. If God forbid something occurs when you will need it....your desired FBI load with its proven track record and “blessed by the lawyers” factory manufacture is carried for the time of need.

Win win, right? To my way of thinking, it is.

[35remington]

And yes, you and P and P are talking about the same thing.

[RED BEAR]

if i am wrong aboutusing factory ammo for fear of proscution then i am happy to admit it.