38 spl "FBI load"

[35remington]

I will again steer the discussion towards where it should be, which is the advisability of Plus P in a gun that is no longer made that the manufacturer suggests is not suitable for them. The usage of such must be pointed out as a “problem.”

[evoevil]

900 is a bit up there for a 2". I shoot 700+ in mine. I shoot regular 158SWC at about 12BHN, good all around for me

[35remington]

It is curious that the OP started off by asking about the Plus P FBI load, then after receiving good information about the gun still proposed loading to a considerably hotter velocity than the FBI load actually produces in a gun not rated for either the FBI load nor the hotter levels mentioned (158/900).

Just an observation of the thread’s development.

[Petrol & Powder]

We're all over the map on thread but I agree with 35Remington's post # 81. Beating up a nice Detective Special isn't a great idea, at least not in my book.

As for 900+ fps in a 2" barrel with a 158 grain bullet - I know it cannot be done within standard pressure limits (17k psi) and I seriously doubt that it can be done at +P pressures (20K psi).
Can you get more than 900 fps with a 2" barrel and 158 gr bullet? - Sure ! but I think you'll be over SAAMI +P limits.
More important, why would you want to?

[dverna]

This has been a great thread. I learned a lot.

[Gunslinger1911]

Great debate, no worries on varying opinions.

I did realize earlier that the 900 f/s target vel was from a 4" bbl, it is what it is from a 2".

IF, the daughter can control the hot +P load, It's not going to blow the gun; is 100 rounds of hot stuff a year going to accelerate wear - you bet.
She wants to use that particular gun (Papaw's), may carry it all the time, may be the night stand gun. I'm (trying to) duplicate what is considered the best load for it.
Am I pushing the envelope ? You becha.
Am I endangering my daughter ? Nope - gun is not going to come apart in her hand.
Am I endangering the gun ? Not really, with the low amount of zingers going through it.

Been reloading for 45 + years (currently, just about everything from 22tcm to 500 mag).
We all "experiment" in some way. We just have to use our best judgement.
John Ross saying "What if ?" got us 500 +g bullets out of the Smith 500.

PLEASE keep up the comments !
Pro, con, anything in between.
I'm not so arrogant that I don't listen; many , many people know more about guns / reloading than I.

[Char-Gar]

What age is that Detective Special? If it has the shrouded ejector rod it will take the pressures of +p loads far better than than one without the shroud. I would not shoot +p loads in one of the older Dick Specials.

The good news is that you can handload full charge wadcutters. Use solid base wadcutters over 3.5/Bulleye for a very good defensive load. For practice you can drop the powder charge to 3 grains for a mild shooting practice load. There is no real need to the +P loads.

[Gunslinger1911]

Mid 70's vintage, shrouded .

[35remington]

A two inch loses 100 fps over a 4 inch barrel. 900 fps is 800 fps or so in a two inch.

Your target velocity is 800 fps. This is much more sensible. This is obtained with 4.7 grains Unique or about 5.1 grains Power Pistol, both standard pressure. You have both your velocity goal (reasonable approximation of FBI load) and standard pressure. For practice I would suggest 3.5 grains Bullseye under a 158. The recoil level reasonably simulates what is needed.

Give serious thought to what Chargar posted. And yes, there is a lot of vast experience and good advice here that you need to heed.

[35remington]

And if it is shrouded, it can take some Plus P, but let her tell you what is appropriate recoilwise and go with that.

[Forrest r]

800fps is only sensible until it hits something hard/solid. Then it's just another under powered load/bullet combo that someone learned the hard way why they never should of used it in the 1st place.

A wc in a snubnosed 38spl would be my absolute last choice for sd. If more people would do some actual testing with them, they would quit recommending them. Going into anything soft they are no better or worse than any other bullet. Start adding in things like car windshields, hardwood trim, solid doors,etc. WC's in snubnosed revolvers loaded with standard pressure loads flat out suck.

A 12bhn 148gr hbwc doing 850fps out of a 6" bbl'd ppc revolver shooting bowling pins @ 50ft.
[IMG][/IMG]

Same bullet/load has a hard time going thru 3/4" trim/plaster walls or 3/4" trim/drywall, 1 3/4" solid core doors. Car windshields are a joke, tons of ricochets along with forget about car doors with the glass down.

Same bullet pictured above recovered from that bowling pin.
[IMG][/IMG]

There's trade-offs to everything. For some odd reason the 2" bbl'd 357's tend to out preform the 4" bbl'd 38spl's. Perhaps it has to do with velocity???
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...cs-test/#38spl

[35remington]

Well, since the FBI load only does about 800 odd fps out of most snubbies all those testimonials about its effectiveness when shooting people need to be explained.

Shooting someone who needs to be shot with a handgun is mostly about shooting the human. I have seen very few instances when the need to shoot through a hard intervening barrier was relevant to a civilian carrying a gun for self defense. No load in 38 Special has a sterling reputation for barrier penetration. May want to skip to the 357s for that.

Against clothing clad humans 800 fps is amply penetrative. If someone is behind a barrier I suggest getting behind one yourself or getting out of there. Threats are most often close, personal and with no intervening objects.

[9.3X62AL]

One good lesson I absorbed from my Dad was to have respect for any mechanism I chose to use or to work on. This included having a reasonable working knowledge of the tool's capabilities and limitations.

Prior to the intro of the 357 Magnum c.1935, the gunmakers brought out beefy 38 Specials meant for use with stoutly-loaded ammunition. S&W had their N-frame "Heavy Duty" and "Outdoorsman" models, Colt had their "New Service" large-frame and Model "P" suitable for such loads, and claimed that their "Official Police" on the "I"-frame (41 frame) could manage 38/44 ammo. (Not at my house!) Modern revolvers have evolved--we have small-frame S&W variants that can contain 357 Magnum cartridges, though I would stick to the 1990s SAAMI specs--I don't think that 1935-level Douglas Wesson loadings for the 357 Magnum would do ANY J- or K-frame 357s a whole lot of good. But for use of the +P "FBI Load" in a pocket revolver......one of these small-frame 357s might be just what the doctor ordered--a good margin of over-strength in the mechanism, and a reduction in recoil from the SAAMI 357 loadings. I am a seasoned handgunner, and I DO NOT ENJOY 357 ammo in J-frame revolvers. FBI loads are snappy but reasonable; my shop's authorized ammo in 38 Special is the Remington 125 grain JHP +P, and for the guys that used the 357 J-frames as back-up/off-duty tools I encouraged them to try the authorized +P 38s in place of the 357s. Many chose this option, given our strange and stilted quals regimen for secondary sidearms then in place.

[Char-Gar]

I am waiting to see my first pic of a bowling pin with any kind of handgun bullet fully embedded in it.

[Tatume]

I am waiting to see my first pic of a bowling pin with any kind of handgun bullet fully embedded in it.

Hi Charles,

The bowling pin pictured above appears to have an exit scar on the lower left. It could have been made by a rifle bullet though.

Take care, Tom

[RED BEAR]

one word of caution i and the wife carry only factory ammo for fear that if ever have to use it some lawyer will claim that this is the most deadly ammo ever made and that i was hiding in my little room trying to come up with the most evel killing ammo ever devised. don't get me wrong i do want to end a situation as quickly as possible just would rather not be prosecuted for doing so. around here it depends on which jurisdiction you are in.

[Char-Gar]

one word of caution i and the wife carry only factory ammo for fear that if ever have to use it some lawyer will claim that this is the most deadly ammo ever made and that i was hiding in my little room trying to come up with the most evel killing ammo ever devised. don't get me wrong i do want to end a situation as quickly as possible just would rather not be prosecuted for doing so. around here it depends on which jurisdiction you are in.

A stake has been driven through the heart of this baseless myth for several decades, but it refuses to die.

[35remington]

the 130 Federal HST I carry in my 638 has a hollow point wadcutter profile. In barrier penetration it makes an 800 fps cast wadcutter look like an armor piercing bullet. It does 14 inches in clothed gelatin. That will do what will need to be done.

If I have a five or six shot revolver shooting at someone behind a barrier is a waste of ammo no matter what caliber it is. With limited capacity apportioning your fire is wise. When I hear of scads of shootouts or even a smalll percentage involving barriers in CCW incidents I may change my mind but since I do not I have as little concern for the need for a bunch of barrier penetration as is merited.

In that case I would suggest a high capacity 10mm instead of a 38 snub.

[35remington]

Welll, we do know if “bloodthirsty handloader” was credible as an argument then nobody could safely use factory Magnum ammo either, and factory hollow points with lurid sounding acronyms like HST, SXT, PDX1, Ultimate Defense, etc would be asking for trouble as well.

The guy that originally tried to promote the idea of “bloodthirsty handloader” has dropped that line of reasoning as the nonsensical idea that it is and now claims handloads are inadvisable due to “dissimilar gunshot residue.”

When you have to shift your point to try to keep your premise valid, the premise was likely flawed to begin with.

[Petrol & Powder]

If I ever suspect I may be attacked by bowling pins......I'll be sure to arm myself with the appropriate weapon and cartridge before I leave the house.