38 spl "FBI load"

[Gunslinger1911]

Doing some research on the old FBI load. My daughter wants to carry my dads old Detective Special. Gotta love tradition !
Found a long thread from a couple years ago. 150 ish grain swc hp at 900 ish f/s out of a 2" bbl.
This was a swaged bullet - so soft.
My question, any ideas on how soft ?

Thanks in advance

[Bookworm]

Swaged boolits are usually very soft lead; either pure, or with a bit of antimony to help it flow.

So, 6-8 Bhn I would suggest. As soft as you can go, and still avoid leading.

[SyberShooter]

I would check that 900fps barrel length again... that sounds pretty hot for a 2"

Federal Classic +P 158 LSWC.HP clocks 778fps out of my SW638 17/8" and 883 fps from a 4" M19. It hits 913fps from a 6" M686.

I've been able to duplicate that with AA-5 and a cast LSWC.HP but I use wheel weights instead of swaged to avoid leading.

[Gunslinger1911]

It was known as a pretty hot load.
So far research says that was the goal, whether or not that's achievable........
Sure wouldn't want to run a steady diet through a 60 year old Detective Special.
I'm thinking lead, maybe just a touch antimony.
Possibly pure lead, plain base gas check, and powder coat to prevent leading. (pink, because, daughter - duh!).
This could be fun.

[FergusonTO35]

For the old Detective Special I would just stoke it with wadcutters and call it good. Easy to shoot and penetrates well. Taurus is bringing the 856 back. Looks like it might be a cheap DS substitute that can easily handle +P.

[tazman]

900fps with a 150rain boolit from a 2" revolver, while not impossible, is getting to the upper reaches of +P. Most loads are showing around 800fps or slightly less. Much depends on the particular revolver and how tight it is.
Since you are using an older weapon, I would suggest pretty much what FergusonT035 did and use wadcutters or almost any 150-158 grain boolit.
I wouldn't worry overmuch about a hollow point. Getting boolits to expand reliably at 800fps or slower can be problematic. Go for accuracy and penetration. Learn how to put the boolits where they need to go.

[fecmech]

In Marshall and Sanow's book"Handgun Stopping Power" they list the ballistics for +P 158's out of 2" barrels. All three manufacturers (WW,Fed,Rem)+P 158's clocked 780-790 fps in snubbys. Those same loads in 4" guns run 900 fps. I don't believe you can get 900 fps in a 2" bbl and stay in SAMMI +P specs. My chrono results in my Model 36 S&W mirrored those results.

[Gunslinger1911]

Good info guys. I mis-read. Looks like 900 in a 4" is the criteria. You get what you get out of shorter.
Have to fire up the pot of pure and see where we get.

[Outpost75]

X38SPD Winchester factory load chronographs 880-890 fps from 3" barrel S&W Model 13 with 0.006" cylinder gap. You can duplicate load with Speer 158 SWCHP component bullet and 4.2 grains of Bullseye 5.2 of Unique, or 5 grs. of AutoComp.

[scattershot]

Hottest load I ever saw for a .38 Special was in Speer #8, and involved 4756 powder. It was known as “the load”, and you could probably Google it.

[Tatume]

I've been carrying the 158 grain 38 Special FBI load for many years. It consists of a Federal SWC-HP Nyclad bullet loaded +P, and is quite a handful in a snub-nosed revolver. The bullet appears to be pure lead, and is enclosed in nylon to reduce airborne lead in indoor ranges.

This ammunition is discontinued and hard to come by. I doubt if a pure lead bullet without the nylon jacket can be pushed this fast without severe leading.

[lazs]

This is so far off subject I hesitate to bring it up but.... back in the day upside down full wad cutters were tried.. this (for me) was a failure with the hollow base either plugging up (making a solid) or folding over which made for erratic performance or... shattering. Recently because of HT coatings.. I boiled some hornady HBWC bullets and coated em with three coats of HT... I loaded em upside down at around 1,000 fps (from a 6" gun) and into dry magazines. I was impressed.. they all expanded perfectly and the HT seemed to hold em together. I recently seen a defense load that is similar to this with what looks all the world like an upside down 38 full wad cutter bullet that has been coated.

The detective special like all Colts is a strong gun. Much stronger than a J frame in my opinion. I am thinking the load I made using fast (231) powder would be at least 850 fps?

lazs

[Outpost75]

Colt Detective Special prior to 1972 IS NOT +P rated.

Authoritative source info:

http://www.grantcunningham.com/2006/...-p-ammunition/

Colt says:

Post-1972 (shrouded ejector rod) models: The owner’s manual says that these guns are rated for +P ammunition. The manual calls for a factory (gunsmith) inspection every 1,000 rounds for the alloy models (Cobra and Agent), and every 3,000 rounds for the steel-framed guns (Detective Special, Police Positive Special, Diamondback.)

Pre-1972 (unshrouded ejector rod) models: None of the Colt guns with unshrouded ejector rods are rated by Colt for +P use. These guns, made prior to 1972, were sold before the advent of +P ammunition.

However, there are some other things to consider before you load your gun with that hot ammo!

What happens?

+P ammunition is loaded to higher pressures than standard .38 Special ammunition. This results in increased muzzle velocity and recoil.

When this ammunition is fired, it puts increased stress on the chambers and cylinder, and the frame is subjected to more force than normal. Colt “D” frame cylinders are certainly up to the task of containing the pressure, but the frames and action parts really take a beating.

This means that the ratchet (ejector) and hand experience increased wear, shortening their life and requiring more frequent replacement.

For the alloy frames, not only do the action parts wear but the frame itself will stretch slightly. After a number of rounds, the frame may be so deformed as to result in headspacing problems. While the steel frames don’t generally stretch so much, the alloy frames will require replacement after a diet of +P.

This increased wear is the reason for the re-inspection intervals given in the owner’s manual. To put it another way, your gun probably won’t suffer catastrophic failure from the use of +P ammunition (it’s SAFE to use), but wear will be greatly increased (it may not be very SMART to use.)

Should you use it?

First, if you plan to use +P ammunition in any Colt, it is imperative that the gun is within factory specifications in every respect. If there is any deficiency, the increased wear patterns from +P use can render the gun unusable or even unsafe in short order.

Regardless of the model, you will experience increased wear if you use +P ammunition. Colt revolvers are not cheap to work on, and some parts are becoming quite scarce, so use should probably be restricted.

What do I recommend?

(What follows is based on my experience shooting, repairing and customizing Colt revolvers. Nothing written here is intended to be predictive, but is simply a recap of what I’ve observed. Use what follows at your own risk and expense.)

For steel-frame models, I’d limit +P use to a few hundred rounds a year, and observe the 3,000 round inspection interval. I’ve found that, if the maintenance is done properly, this will result in many years of shooting service.

Regarding the alloy models, frame stretch is a major concern. In addition, the alloy frames will suffer more wear in the action than the steel guns because their lessened mass results in a higher recoil pulse.

Since the alloy guns are so scarce, and replacing a stretched frame is essentially impossible these days, I recommend that you shoot very few +P rounds in them. If you plan to carry it, you can certainly shoot two or three cylinders full just to acquaint yourself with the increased recoil – then practice with regular pressure loads. Absolutely observe the 1,000 round inspection schedule, and make certain that the gun is in perfect condition beforehand.

What about the older models?

In general, I wouldn’t. Any of the pre-72 guns are now so collectible that it just doesn’t make sense to subject them to the pounding that +P ammo will give them.


But, should you insist…if the gun is a steel model made in the mid-50’s to late 60’s, it is probably strong enough that it won’t suffer catastrophic failure with +P loads. However, in my experience the pre-72 models have slightly softer metallurgy, which results in increased frame wear. Thus, it’s not a question of “will the gun handle it,” it’s more a question of how much expensive maintenance it will require!

If it’s earlier than that period, or any pre-72 alloy frame model, “just say no.”

The bottom line

You don’t have to be afraid of +P ammunition, just understand that each +P round you put through your Colt will result in more wear than a standard pressure load. It is up to you to maintain the gun appropriately.

Related, article because "The internet “experts” just can’t let this one go!"

http://www.grantcunningham.com/2007/...olt-revolvers/

[Petrol & Powder]

OK, this is a topic I can speak to with a little authority but I'll bow to Outpost75 as the ultimate expert.

The "FBI Load", AKA "Chicago Load", "Dallas Load", "Treasury Load", etc. has been with us for about roughly 45 years. It consists of a soft lead, hollowpoint SWC driven at +P velocity. The size of the hollowpoint cavity and the lead alloy vary a bit but that's the basic formula.

The load seems a bit "low tech" to the younger crowd but it has a fantastically long track record of good performance. One of the excellent traits of the FBI load is that it is one of the few loads that works well in 4" barreled revolvers AND short barreled revolvers. Even when it fails to expand, it STILL performs well. In engineering terms, it fails gracefully.

I agree with fecmech that getting 900 fps or more from a 158 grain bullet in a 2" barrel is not going to happen unless you exceed SAAMI specs for +P pressures. But I also see that the OP corrected himself and he was referring to velocities fro 4" barrels. I agree that when fired from snubnose, "you get what you get" in terms of velocity.

Of the factory "FBI Loads" the Remington R38S12 (now known as the RTP38S12 or High Terminal Performance load) was always considered to have the softest bullet alloy. I can't recall what the BHn of the Remington bullet is but my best guess is that it is somewhere around 7 BHn.

As for the backwards loaded HBWC - I tested that years ago and like lazs - I was very UNIMPRESSED. In fact, that may be one of the greatest urban myths on the firearm's related internet forums. When I could get those to expand, the skirt would either fold back on itself or completely separate. When it separated, the loss of mass significantly hindered its ability to penetrate. Those results only occurred when I could hit the target ! The reversed HBWC proved to be woefully inaccurate at any kind of range beyond a few yards. Having actually tested the reversed HBWC, I would never recommend it for SD. Nuff said there.

As for the Federal Nyclad load that Tatume speaks of, the bullet used in the Nyclad loads was very soft, maybe even pure lead. The coating allowed that soft lead projectile to work without severe leading. The Nyclad loads went through a few iterations with different bullet and hollowpoint profiles but they were all very soft. NYPD issued the Nyclad for a while but got away from them when the Speer Gold Dot 135 grain "Short Barrel" load was adopted.

As for the OP's Detective Special project - I concur that some form of the "FBI Load" would be an excellent choice.
My first choice would be a solid SWC of around 158 grains loaded to standard pressure for a PRACTICE load and the Remington factory RTP38S12 load for carry. That would just be the simplest setup and wouldn't require that you re-invent the wheel when trying to find the right alloy/HP configuration. I also would not shoot a lot of +P loads in the Detective Special, not because it's weak but just because there's no need to stress the gun in practice.

If you want to roll you own FBI Load, I would follow Outpost75's advice. When seeking the right alloy/HP balance and configuration, I would err on the side of softer lead and smaller hollowpoint cavity. At snubnose velocities the bullet must reliably penetrate and expansion is just the icing on the cake. I would rather depend on a soft alloy instead of a big hollowpoint in order to achieve that expansion. When fired from a short barrel, you do not want the expansion of the 158 grain slug to limit the penetration too early in the process.

Good Luck

[Petrol & Powder]

I'll second everything Outpost75 wrote above and add a bit.

I've owned many snubnose DA revolvers over the years and I have a lot of experience with them.
The snubnose Colts such as the Detective Special, Agent and Cobra were good guns but as Outpost points out, they are getting into the collector's world more and more every day. I wouldn't want to abuse a fine example.
I still have my 3rd generation Detective Special:
Attachment 218857

That is not a gun that I would want to fire a large number of +P loads through. It can handle them but there's no need to wear it prematurely.

When I had my Colt Agent's and Cobra's, I didn't shoot +P ammo in those alloy framed guns.

[9.3X62AL]

I would check that 900fps barrel length again... that sounds pretty hot for a 2"

Federal Classic +P 158 LSWC.HP clocks 778fps out of my SW638 17/8" and 883 fps from a 4" M19. It hits 913fps from a 6" M686.

I've been able to duplicate that with AA-5 and a cast LSWC.HP but I use wheel weights instead of swaged to avoid leading.

I have had very similar results from my chronography of the W-W, R-P, and F-C versions of this load. I believe this load to be the single-best 38 Special loading carried in harm's way, and it would be my choice in this venue. Have a look at the Alliant shotgun powder data for 38 Special +P to get guidance on charge weights. I greatly respect the lady's choice of Detective Special for defensive carry. I truly think it is the best example of snub-nose 38 Special ever produced in this country. The post-1969/3rd Series examples with the shrouded ejector rod are +P rated; the older examples should have limited exposure to +P loadings--i.e., enough firing to familiarize the user with the recoil and bark, then practice with standard-pressure 158 grain ammo. There is not much difference in recoil or shot distribution downrange between the 2 loadings, but it is noticeable in a smaller platform and I like to prevent surprises with the folks I help.

[Outpost75]

...I still have my 3rd generation Detective Special:
Attachment 218857...

Yours looks like a clone of mine which was tweaked by Sandy Garrett at NoVA Gun Works.

Maybe we should "breed" them

[9.3X62AL]

By all means--PLEASE breed them!

[Hickory]

Whether 800fps or 900fps, it will take the starch out of a bad guy.

[Livin_cincy]

Do you reload ?

https://www.speer-ammo.com/downloads...cial_158_L.pdf