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Thread: Bayonets and Point of Impact

  1. #1
    Boolit Master

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    Bayonets and Point of Impact

    I am in the process of returning to the French Chassepot ammo experimentation on which we have a thread cooking in the Black Powder Cartridge section.

    When last we had this rifle out, grouping was a bit to the left. The bayonet (which we have, but have not shot mounted yet) mounts on the right side of the muzzle.

    We're going to find out for sure when we load it up and pull the trigger, but it seems to me that the bayonet so mounted would push rounds even FURTHER to the left.

    Seeing as this rifle has no apparent mode of adjustment for windage, we're curious as to what the noted effects of mounted steel on shot placement are with various platforms.

    Let the enlightenment begin!
    WWJMBD?

    "I'M MELLLLLLLLLLTING!" - Elphaba

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    The barrel harmonics will be affected in some manner. Just have to light off a few and see.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    The Russian model 44 carbine in 7.62x54r has a side mounted bayonet that releases to slip over the muzzle. I left mine in the dismounted position along side the stock when firing Yugo NNY head stamped heavy ball. Outside of tweaking the front sight with the bayonet along side the stock never shot it with the bayonet attached to the muzzle. Frank

  4. #4
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by 725 View Post
    The barrel harmonics will be affected in some manner. Just have to light off a few and see.
    Indeed we will. . .

    If indeed this rifle zeros with the blade attached, one has to wonder what rattles around in the hive mind of a governmental think tank that would calibrate a breechloading rifle to shoot to the sights with the bayonet mounted, AND yet equip it with sights that give sufficient elevation for some hundreds of meters, AND not give the operator any means of adjusting the rifle for whether the bayonet is on or off.

    Giving the order to "FIX BARREL-TUNING WEIGHTS!" when the enemy is still 800 yards out just doesn't have the same machismo. . .
    WWJMBD?

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  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    The powers that be may have still been thinking of the old massed troops in formation doing volley fire. The old military techniques and strategy wasn't that old when these early breechloading rifles came out. Thus individual accuracy may not have been all that important yet.

    My other thought is that the rifle may be regulated for a particular loading. A certain powder charge and a certain bullet weight may be needed.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master

    HABCAN's Avatar
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    Years ago I had a little brown 'Soldier's Manual of Small Arms' (which I gave away to a museum) describing in detail the many weapons they might encounter in the field that was issued to British troops early in WW2. I distinctly remember an instructional passage in it advising different points of aim for the L/E #1 Mk III with and without bayonet attached. Wish I had it now so I could quote directly for those interested.
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  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    The old long barrel Mosin Nagant 91 was sighted in with bayonet mounted and soldiers instructed to always mount the bayonet when in combat.

    The Enfield No.4 rifle had a definite shift in POI with bayonet mounted and instructions were to mount the bayonet to lower the POI at closer ranges.

    Some European rifles had a secondary front sight dovetailed into the bayonet muzzle ring. These allowed pin point accuracy at close range with bayonet mounted. Don't remember which country used these.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by Multigunner View Post
    The Enfield No.4 rifle had a definite shift in POI with bayonet mounted and instructions were to mount the bayonet to lower the POI at closer ranges.
    Ok. . .that's at least a possible indication that the point of impact may get pulled toward the bayonet, which would be desirable in this case.
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  9. #9
    Boolit Master Dan Cash's Avatar
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    Don't have a Chassepot but my 1911 Schmidt Rubin prints abut 3 inches vertical string centered for deflection without bayonette. Add the bayonette and the string changes to 3 inch horizontal but centered for elevation, these groups at 100 yards. This is the only gun I have paid any attention to performance with bayonette.
    To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, the trouble with many shooting experts is not that they're ignorant; its just that they know so much that isn't so.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    sks poi is considerably diffent with the bayonette on or off
    Any thing touching the barrel is going to change POI

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Multigunner View Post
    The old long barrel Mosin Nagant 91 was sighted in with bayonet mounted and soldiers instructed to always mount the bayonet when in combat.

    The Enfield No.4 rifle had a definite shift in POI with bayonet mounted and instructions were to mount the bayonet to lower the POI at closer ranges.

    Some European rifles had a secondary front sight dovetailed into the bayonet muzzle ring. These allowed pin point accuracy at close range with bayonet mounted. Don't remember which country used these.
    That sight on the bayonet (solid I think, rather than dovetailed) was Austro-Hungarian. I don't remember which rifle in a time when Europe was so full of empires that couldn't afford to turn their backs on each other, that successive rearmaments followed in ruinously expensive succession. But I believe (work this out if you can) it was only the NCO's model.

    It is true about the bayonet being used to adjust the zeroing on the model of the No.4 Lee-Enfield which had the simplified two-leaf rear sight. But the bayonet by that time was a piffling little spike, too light to produce great effect. The Martini-Henry was said to shoot some fifteen inches to one side at a hundred yards with its large sword-bayonet fixed, which was unhelpful when you consider how quickly uncivilised persons with large choppers of native make could cover that distance.

    I'm in no doubt that a large side-mounted bayonet would make a rifle shoot to one side. I just can't completely convince myself which side it would be. As human beings in 19th century tactics were a higher target than they were wide, the bayonet underneath was a better object. I suppose people hadn't quite got rid of the idea that rifles needed a ramrod - a bit like most of the world's railways having the when spacing of George Stevenson's horsedrawn road carriage.

    Here is my favourite pictures of an even larger side-mounted sword-bayonet, introduced for the muzzle-loading Enfield and occasionally used with a bushing for the Martini-Henry. Here it is used by Lord Roberts's Gurkhas storming the Peiwar Kotal, which is the back door into Afghanistan. I've got mine, but never a rifle to fit it.
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  12. #12
    Boolit Master Artful's Avatar
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    Mosin 91/30 with and w/o bayonet fixed
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6elWsvQzNrY

    Mosin M44 and T53 tested with and without
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWGB9AjdXyY

    Baker Rifle w/ Sword Bayonet
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5ux-kBZIyM
    Last edited by Artful; 04-12-2018 at 03:43 PM.
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  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Just touching a car antenna gently with a barrel will deflect POI sideways noticeably.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master


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    My MN poi changes low and left with the bayonet attached. Accuracy remains the same. Target shows 2 ten shot groups. Top group w/o bayonet. Lower left group is with bayonet mounted as per the Russian manual. The rifle's sights obviously were "zeroed" without the bayonet attached. Other "L" ammunition from various countries including mother Russia hit pretty much to the same poi. Zeroing the front sight windage with bayonet attached would result in the front sight being way off to the left side of the front sight base, hanging about 1/3 of the way out.

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    Note; the service load hits high because the front sight was filed for a zero with the 314299 at 1900 fps. That load hits just above poa at 100 yards.
    Larry Gibson

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check