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Thread: Finally Made It To The Range ~ Part 3

  1. #1
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Finally Made It To The Range ~ Part 3

    Okay, I made it to the range again! Thats 3 times in a month! Things are looking up.

    Actually things are looking up in more ways than one. I am finding answers to some of the failures I've had lately and some successes or at least not failures as well.

    Things weren't very pretty with the Russian Paradox slugs that KrackenFan69 sent me though. Nor were they pretty with my 565 gr. TC slugs with Russian Paradox wads installed!

    All groups shot at 50 yards from smoothbore cylinder gun.

    Both the above slugs gave rather large groups:

    Russian Paradox slugs:

    - One extreme flier resulting in 25" overall group!
    - 6 out of 10 went into a 9" x 4" group and the other 3 made that into about a 12" group so poor but not the worst I've seen (can you say Lyman Foster?)
    - Load was 36 grs. Blue Dot in Federal field hull; roll crimped very nicely
    - Federal 209A primer
    - no target posted
    - recovered slugs told a story:
    - Slugs as cast are 0.727"
    - Slugs after firing are bore diameter at 0.733"+
    - driving bands are much wider after firing
    - groove is "squished" after firing
    - Pic:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    - the alloy is quite soft and these slugs didn't do well on impact with wet fine sand in the 50 yard berm
    - the slugs below likely followed the others into the berm after cutting a trough as they are not badly damaged but look at the driving bands and groove in comparison to the unfired slug:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    also note the divot in the bottom driving band over the stiff part of the cushion leg. All base bands were somewhat distorted this way and the same as I have seen in Gualandi DGS slugs. Pic from a previous range trip:

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    You can see the base band distortion quite clearly

    So my take on poor accuracy here is that the load is causing slug distortion. Having said that, all holes in the target were round so they flew well after leaving the muzzle but they must have gotten poor launches. I'll try again with lighter load though this was not a particularly heavy load.

    565 gr. TC Full Bore Slugs with Paradox Wads

    - approx. 15" group kinda scattered like
    - no slugs recovered
    - no target posted
    - same weight and load as above also roll crimped very nicely

    No clue why these shot so badly. The slugs are somewhat undersize in the bore but with that long wad I expected better. I wish I could have found some slugs in the berm. Also, the paradox wads fit these slugs like they were made for them so again, a bit of a mystery as to why the poor accuracy. All loads felt the same for these and Paradox slugs above... recoil, BANG, etc. all good. Again all holes in the target were round so no significant wobble and certainly no keyholes.

    Lee 7/8 oz. Slugs As Cast:

    - first group had one flier due to cocked slug at crimping 6 1/2" O/A group with 4 in 4" so not too bad
    - 2nd group was larger at 7 1/2" but still not horrible and maybe shooter error contributed
    - load was Green Dot in Federal Field hull and unlike last trip using Unique these all went BANG the same; roll crimped very nicely
    - target:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Overall not horrible but could be better. That large hole in middle right has one slug from each group through it.

    Lee 1 oz. Slug:

    - overall group 8" with 4 in 4 3/4" so not bad and again, that flier... well could be the shooter...
    - these were sized and paper patched Lee 1 oz. slugs
    - powder was SR4756 per first range trip
    - target:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Lee group is on top

    Other than the one bad flier this is one of the best Lee 1 oz. groups I've gotten though I haven't shot that many and one group doesn't mean much but these will be tested again.

    0.678" RB on Copper Tube Skirt:

    - as in the title... this is a 0.678" RB drilled for a wood screw, screw install, flared 1/2" copper pipe placed over ball with screw up, hot melt glue filled skirt
    - obviously the ball fits a shotcup and so does the copper tube; these got cross strips of paper to snug them up for bore fit
    - these have done well in the past and seemed to again putting 3 into 2 1/2" with one flier to 6" (shooter?) still not bad
    - one low primer wouldn't fire so only 4 shots
    - target: bottom target above with Lee 1 oz.
    - oddly, my TC slugs with spigot fit into the same copper tube skirt have not shot well so far. Trying to figure out why

    Now some pics for interest:

    Ribbed and Finned Slugs From a Home Made Mould

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    The ribbed slug is HB and fly about the same as my other HB slugs so mediocre to okay. The intent of the ribs is to make it choke friendly though I have not shot them through a choke. Same slug has been Brenneke'ized with reasonable results.

    The finned slug was the original intent and again designed to be choke friendly. They didn't work too well due to fins collapsing at firing though oven heat treating fixed that. They were also hard on nitro card wads so I had to put polyethylene disks under the fins.

    Also, I think the fins are operating in a partial vacuum due to the shock wave so are not terribly effective. I've found that full diameter skirts seem to perform better... for me anyway.

    Both the ribbed and finned slugs punched "gear" shaped holes in targets which look pretty cool. Too bad they don't group better.

    Copper Tube & Glue Skirt Slugs:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The copper tube skirted TC slug is made the same as the 0.678" RB with copper tube skirt but so far they do not fly as well for some reason I have yet to determine. this one is recovered from "Part - 2."

    The glue skirt slug is solid with wood screw in the base then glue skirt cast on. This is so far one of my best slugs. These are quite undersize as they were designed for steel shot wads by Greg Sappington so I paper patch them up to snug fit in a standard shotcup. I've had some very good results with these though the skirts are a bit hard to get consistent. I'll be making more of these.

    Now MrBigTong's 3D printed wad idea come's to mind here!

    This one was recovered almost intact most likely from deep snow. You can see some paper from patching still stuck to it. I tumble them in baby powder now before patching to avoid that. Accuracy has always been quite good with these so why do I keep searching? Now that is a good question! These will get some focus!

    Greg's Slug

    Here is a slug designed by Greg Sappington. I made the mould for him for testing. Intended as a wad slug for rifled gun it also fits snuggly into some unslit wads so I saved a few for myself and tried that. Other than the wad wasn't as sturdy as it could have been they did okay. I don't have access to many wad types locally but for those that do this is not a bad idea to experiment with for a Hammehead like slug. 12 ga. steel shot wads apparently take 0.662" RB's perfectly and these wads which I don't have a name for, but are likely BPI wads, take these slugs perfectly. There are two recovered slugs and wads (I "knurled" grooves into the slugs for tighter fit) and as as cast slug in a wad with 4 x 16 ga. nitro card wads under. Likely better to shorten the shotcup some.

    Wads stay with these to the berm hence the mangled wads.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I'll be back at it again shortly. I'm narrowing the field but still will be testing some of the same designs to determine consistency (are fliers slug issues or shooter issues?). I need to recover a bit... that was another 40 rounds of slugs shot off the bench. My brain is starting to rattle with each pull of the trigger!

    The Lee slugs in both weights are shooting okay but I think the sized version is better. Copper tube skirted balls and slugs will get another go as will glue skirted slugs and my knurled and sized 565 gr. full bore slugs. And of course I still have more Paradox slugs to test but will tone down loads some to see how they do. I like the slug and they are easy to load. The wad seems very sturdy as well so hopefully I can come up with a good load and get accuracy from them.

    That's it for now!

    Longbow

  2. #2
    In Remembrance bikerbeans's Avatar
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    LB,

    How much shorter are the paradox slugs after firing?

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  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy KrakenFan69's Avatar
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    Good point about the soft alloy of those Paradox slugs. They were cast from a pure(ish) lead made up of lead washers and roofing sheeting tear offs. I'll butch up the next batch with some wheel weights and see if I can get some better results. I will also try to recover some of the ones I have of that same alloy and check the lube groove for compression in my loads. I am currently Hi-Tek coating these but my plan is to switch to Ben's Red as son as I can score a tin of Johnson's paste car wax, which is oddly not available in Canada.

    Kraken Fan #69

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master

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    The Paradox slug lead wasn't any shorter! I was surprised but I have to think that as the the wad pushes the base up, the sides are pushing out and the HB is full of wad so the lead moves to thin skirt walls but doesn't get shorter.

    Look at the driving bands. They got lots wider and the groove just about disappeared.

    The wad gets shorter and the slug looks shorter and fatter but the calipers say length of lead really hasn't changed much. I'll check again as I think I only checked one slug out of the 3 that weren't munched up too badly. I wasn't looking at length as much as diameter and band/groove changes.

    Longbow

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master

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    You should try my hot tumble lube method. I use if for rifle boolits. I think I've mentioned it here but... I melt some of my home made lube in a frying pan then add some boolits, let them sit for a minute or so then roll around in the frying pan to pick up a coat of lube like tumble lubing puts on. Once they have a thin coat of lube pick out with pliers and set on foil to cool. No drying time, just a few minutes to cool off. That has become my standard lubing method for some time now.

    My home made lube was kind of based off Felix lube but I didn't have beeswax so used Paraffin and didn't have... well most of it so used Lucas Red 'N Tacky grease and ivory soap then a dash of Bardahl oil treatment once all is melted and blended. It is easy to make, nothing hard to get and works in my rifles.

    I haven't had any leading issues with slugs so far likely because most are fairly hard but I'd use the hot tumble lube for shotgun too. I think any meltable lube would work, just don't get it hot enough to scorch. Quick and easy.

    Longbow

  6. #6
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    The DG slugs. Are they soft lead? I used to find lots of these years ago when S&B used to import these as loaded slugs. I always kept these separate when melting the slugs I found when mining the berms. They were almost the same hardness as linotype.

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Yes these DGS slugs I had were reasonably hard alloy. I don't have a hardness tester but I'd guess at least same as moderately heat treated wheelweights and maybe harder. The skirts are actually a quite thin but distort without breaking up. I have another recovered DGS slug that has lost its wad and flattened sideways without breaking.

    I oven heat treated a bunch of slugs I made out of ACWW because the skirts were distorting at firing (the finned slugs above were heat treated for the same reason) and found that while the skirt distortion was cured, they became very brittle and broke up on impact.

    A different alloy could likely provide both the required strength and ductility so likely that is what Gualandi uses. I'd say the slugs I've got aren't as hard as linotype but fairly hard.

    They are not a bad slug but I'd go thicker on the skirt. Just my opinion.

    Longbow

  8. #8
    Boolit Master

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    Kent, I'm wondering if that overbore gun (iirc .733) might be contributing some to some of the inaccuracy. Got anything a little tighter? Also I don't think the roll crimp is as effective on bird shot wads as fold crimp. Of course I may well be all wet. I do know there is a lot of desparity in shotgun barrels.
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    Boolit Grand Master


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    Howdy Longbow
    This is very interesting to read. Looking at the wads makes me wonder if they are not a big part of the flyer issue ?
    Mike in Peru
    "Come unto Me, all you who labor and are heavy burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28
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  10. #10
    Boolit Master

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    My last post sounds a little critical, not meant to be.....the 4" @ 50 yds with that 7/8 lee is pretty sporty. That's minute of anything's shoulder and the penetration is pretty impressive with those things. I have not retreived a slug from 4 hogs or 2 deer with them. Oddly enough the best accuracy I got from them was an old 870 with a poly choke using the old Winchester AA 12R wads and that includes 2 different rifled guns!
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
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  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Mike:

    You're talking about the Paradox slug wads? I don't think the wads are an issue or a big one anyway. They appear to be the same as Gualandi DGS slug wads. They are pretty skookum (tough) wads and look good. Certainly gas seals look good and overall the wads look good.

    KrackenFan69 (who supplied these for me) is getting fairly good accuracy from them with his loads. Ill check to see where his loads are on the "power" scale (pressure) to compare to my Blue Dot loads.

    I think it is more of the undersize slug (oversize bore) upsetting to fill the bore... and soft alloy, though an undersize hard slug might not do much if any better. Effectively that's what my 565 gr. slugs with those wads were. They shot much better as sized to bore HB slugs. I may try then again as well on the Paradox wads but knurled then sized.

    I'll try knurling some of the Russian Paradox slugs up then sizing to bore diameter. That made a big difference in my 565 gr. HB slug accuracy.

    Hogtamer:

    No offense taken. My cylinder bore gun is nothing special but shoots pretty well if I do my part. It is a bit oversize but it has given me some fine accuracy with round balls and some HB slugs in the past... again, if I do my part. I do have a Browning BPS with buck and slug barrel labeled I/C choke but measuring 0.710" at the muzzle which is darn tight for I/C! Now that I know these Paradox slugs are soft lead I'll try some in the BPS to see if there is any difference in accuracy. I'll have to slug that bore though as I do not know what diameter it is... just checked the choke. I never got decent accuracy from Lyman Fosters in it or my cylinder bore gun.

    Actually the oversize bore and the taper on the Lee slugs is what stimulated me to make the sizer to remove taper then paper patch back up to bore size for snug fit in my barrel. The Lee slugs as cast are a bit loose in the bore using Winchester wads. Not sloppy, just not tight. The sizing and patching to snug fit seems to have helped with the 1 oz. slugs though I really have not shot many of the Lees at all so can't draw any conclusions yet.

    The roll crimp/fold crimp thing is a valid observation and one I've been wondering about myself. I like to roll crimp with slugs so I can see it is a slug. No mistaking slug loads for birdshot! However, I do have to wonder about wad slugs opening up the crimp. I have to say that so far wads I have recovered don't show signs of petal damage but I should load some of the same wad slugs using fold crimp for 10 and roll crimp for 10 to see if there is any difference in accuracy with all else being he same.

    Another thing I should have added as well is that I have been using wheelweights for the Lee and other HB slugs. Lee recommends using soft lead and that may allow some slugging up to tighter fit in the bore at firing maybe improving accuracy? Something else I should try.

    Are you casting yours out of soft lead or harder alloy? I got in the habit of using wheelweights and sometimes oven heat treating to prevent HB slugs from deforming so much in the bore. Of course with RB's it doesn't make any difference.

    I doubt I'll get to the range in the next couple of weeks as I have an archery shoot in two weeks and am out of practice (sounds familiar eh!?!). I went to the archery range yesterday and it wasn't pretty! Kind of a theme I am running with lately regarding my shooting skills (or lack thereof!). I don't think the archery trophies will be in any danger of winding up at my house!

    Longbow
    Last edited by longbow; 04-08-2018 at 07:51 PM. Reason: Spelling

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

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    For those that think slug loading is contrary let LB tell you about archer's paradox, that requires a certain stiffness (spine weight) arrow to bend around the handle of a longbow to get to the target, dependent on weight of bow and length of draw. Heck, just a pic to get him started!
    Attachment 217970
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  13. #13
    In Remembrance bikerbeans's Avatar
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    HT,

    Is that a badger perched on your noggin'?

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  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Shhhhhhh! Don't wake it up!

    Well, now you got me going! The archer's paradox is hardly as contrary as slug shooting. The archer's paradox is a perfectly natural occurrence of physics at work. The arrow bends at a half sine wave when loaded by the string. As Hal said the arrow spine (stiffness) has to match the bow weight, brace height, arrow tip weight, lots of things all working together but again all natural and best of all the old guys who didn't know trig or physics had it all worked out hundreds and maybe thousands of years ago!

    A properly spined arrow will bend at the appropriate time and to the appropriate bend to totally clear the handle of the bow yet still fly to the point of aim!

    Here's a good video of slo-mo arrow launching that demonstrates the archer's paradox pretty well:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96KGWC0PB6s

    Now shotgun slugs in the 21st century... that's just contrary to the laws of nature! I've said it before, there's some black magic involved in successful shotgun slug shooting! I'm sure of it.

    Is that badger still asleep!

    Longbow

  15. #15
    Boolit Master Cap'n Morgan's Avatar
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    Good write-up Longbow.

    Personally I don't trust long, perforated wads like the Russian paradox load - they're bound to become somewhat crooked after being compressed during launch. Also, judging from the distorted skirt, they don't support the rim evenly. I would think a non-slit wad would be more stable - like the one you used in "Greg's Load". A non-slit steel shot wad (thicker walls) could be shortened to optimal length and, with a stack of nitro cards under the slug, should be very sturdy. Of course, the slug should match the wad wall thickness for a good bore-fit. With the rather thick walls (about .04) the slug will not damage even a full choke barrel.
    Cap'n Morgan

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check