Breech seating grease lubed boolits?

[indian joe]

Breech seating grease lubed boolits over blackpowder
Have read enough info on the "how" of this .. really interested in what improvement in accuracy was achieved? .. what calibres responded? (38/55 and 45/70 would be what I try)
And one question ....the PP boys use a wrapped bore size boolit and it slugs up and engraves the rifling when its shot .......can we get that to happen with an undersized grease lube boolit? --(say a .454 slug in a .457 groove barrel? would it fill out like the pp slug or no?)

[Gunlaker]

It really depends on the chamber and the bullet, but it is generally pretty easy to make a breech seated bullet shoot very well. I think that most times there is an accuracy edge with breech seating. Sometimes the difference can be dramatic. I have not breech seated in the .45-70 but have a lot in the .32-40, .38-55, and .38.50 Remington Hepburn.

I have not tried an undersized breech seated bullet, except for bore diameter breech seated PP bullets. They work very well. I seat a 0.060" LDPE wad under the bullet with my seater. They are quite easy to get excellent accuracy from. I imagine an undersized grease groove bullet would work well too, but I've always used groove diameter bullets when shooting GG bullets.

Chris.

[country gent]

Check Out Randolph S Wrights book shooting the Traditional Shutezen Rifle. It cover breech seating very well. The PP I wrap for breech seating are roughly .002 - .003 over bore dia, I think this helps locate the bullet in the bore more accurately. My wad is also used to seal the case mouth. Grease groove are cast from 20-1 and groove dia. much over and they get hard to seat fully. A lot of the old bullets for breech seating were tapered desighns to ease seating force and help center the bullet easily. Wrights book covers the tools loading and shooting very well in a easy to read well laid out format.

[WALLNUTT]

+1 on Randy Wrights book.

[indian joe]

+1 on Randy Wrights book.

Thanks for the answers fellas - have not seen the Randy Wright book - but there a couple blokes down here might have it.
Made a breech seater dummy round this afternoon for my 38/55 has a sliding innards in so I put the boolit in the case normal depth (unresized case of course), chamber the gadget, close the action, eject dummy, looks good! rifling engraves boolit to the last lube groove so there is plenty support - the rifle has enough camming to seat the boolit home so its not gonna be a hassle doing this. Will make up some full case BP loads with a wad tonite and see what happens tomorrow

[country gent]

I think I got my copies of Mr Wrights books from MVA or Shiloh sharps rifles. Both are very good Loading and Shooting the traditional Shutzen rifle, and Loading and Shooting the Paper Patched Bullet A Beginners Guide.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

joe,
breech seating will give you the opportunity for increased accuracy if you are prepared to go the full mile.
it offers the chance to tune by adjusting the airgap between the overpowder wad and the bullet base.
start with the bullet base touching the wad, and shoot groups pushing the bullet 0.010" further in each time.
with the 38/55 a gap of about 1/16" will probably but not necessarily be about the mark
with the 45, about 1/8" might be best.
the case is best droptubed full of powder such that the o.p. wad is level with the top of the case.
consistent droptubing will give consistent airgaps.
bore diameter + 0.001" patched bullets are easy to seat, and will stay put, shooting well.
not knowing your chamber configuration makes defining a suited greaser hard.
in 38 cal, pope and hudson style bullets are available, designed for this job.
if the front band/bands fit the bore diameter, the bullet is well started.
increasing diametr bands will keep it straight, and a widish base band a neat fit or 0.001" bigger than freebor/groove diameter will finish a good breech seat.
if there is freebore, bands that fit that are best.
the pope and hudson bullets are suited to softer alloys like 20:1, as they have short noses that do not bump into the rifling causing leading.
softer alloys are easier to push into the rifling.
if your bullets are 1/2 way between bore and groove diameter, you really have no guarantee that the bullet is seated straight.
while a gas seal can be adressed with wads, the bullet must start straight to shoot straight.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Lead pot]

Bruce with a proper tool that fits the chamber and the piston that pushes the bullet into the throat and bore will seat a bullet straight.
Using a palm seater then yes you will have a problem seating the bullet out of line, worse then a bullet seated in a case with run out.
I started with a palm seater and checking recovered bullets it was plain that some did not get seated straight that were over bore diameter. You can see this by how uneven the land cuts are on the shank and ogive. Some do not have land cuts as much as .100" above the base and heavy impressions on the opposite side.
Using a tool like Russ Webber makes that has a case fired in your chamber you will use the tool for has a piston that has to push the bullet straight into the throat and into the bore even using a groove diameter bullet PP or GG . I use a patched bullet that is 1/2 the diameter between the bore and groove using alloy 1/16 to as hard as a mix of 14 BHN a alloy I would not use for a bore diameter PP bullet seated into the case mouth 1/8" because it will not get proper upset to hold the lands for full rotation. The bullet will very slightly upset and all that gives the bullet rotation is mostly the paper jacket. This is very plain looking at recovered bullets.
I have not worked with a air gap like you mentioned to see if it really has an effect down range or not. But yes breach seating has a place were time allows.
I also see a difference seating a bullet with a wad at the same time followed with a lube wad right on the powder separated with a butcher paper wad and flush with the case mouth that really shows a difference down range. I think the extra ability sealing the gas has an effect.....Kurt

Edit.....Just a thought that air gap you mention a lot could be to get the bullet base past the throat lead like I use a wad/wads under the bullet that gets seated with the tool. Most of my chambers I have are cut with my chamber reamer I design that have a gental lead of a 4/1.5 to 2 degree compound lead to a 5 degree 2.5 compound so some of my leads are .264" or longer.

[indian joe]

Bruce with a proper tool that fits the chamber and the piston that pushes the bullet into the throat and bore will seat a bullet straight.
Using a palm seater then yes you will have a problem seating the bullet out of line, worse then a bullet seated in a case with run out.
I started with a palm seater and checking recovered bullets it was plain that some did not get seated straight that were over bore diameter. You can see this by how uneven the land cuts are on the shank and ogive. Some do not have land cuts as much as .100" above the base and heavy impressions on the opposite side.
Using a tool like Russ Webber makes that has a case fired in your chamber you will use the tool for has a piston that has to push the bullet straight into the throat and into the bore even using a groove diameter bullet PP or GG . I use a patched bullet that is 1/2 the diameter between the bore and groove using alloy 1/16 to as hard as a mix of 14 BHN a alloy I would not use for a bore diameter PP bullet seated into the case mouth 1/8" because it will not get proper upset to hold the lands for full rotation. The bullet will very slightly upset and all that gives the bullet rotation is mostly the paper jacket. This is very plain looking at recovered bullets.
I have not worked with a air gap like you mentioned to see if it really has an effect down range or not. But yes breach seating has a place were time allows.
I also see a difference seating a bullet with a wad at the same time followed with a lube wad right on the powder separated with a butcher paper wad and flush with the case mouth that really shows a difference down range. I think the extra ability sealing the gas has an effect.....Kurt

Edit.....Just a thought that air gap you mention a lot could be to get the bullet base past the throat lead like I use a wad/wads under the bullet that gets seated with the tool. Most of my chambers I have are cut with my chamber reamer I design that have a gental lead of a 4/1.5 to 2 degree compound lead to a 5 degree 2.5 compound so some of my leads are .264" or longer.

I took a fired case (indexed) - bored the primer pocket out in the lathe - made a plunger as neat fit as I could without it jamming - so I have a quarter inch diameter piston out the primer end and plunger head sized neat to the inside case diameter - then I slide the lubed boolit into the case about normal depth - chamber the whole thing like a loaded round and when she closes the boolit is seated - slides up out of the case and pushed into the rifling - then just eject the seater gadget like ya would an empty round - its a resonably slick operation thus far - droptubed a case full of powder and a little compression - first test just have a thin card wad over the powder - maybe need a heavier wad ? shooting soon!! will get back

[Lead pot]

As long as it works for your satisfaction is all that matters.
Here is my tool.
Attachment 217890Attachment 217892Attachment 217893

[indian joe]

As long as it works for your satisfaction is all that matters.
Here is my tool.
Attachment 217890Attachment 217892Attachment 217893

Thanks I will keep that picture! if I go to the 45/70 sharps I will need to make one of those .

[indian joe]

Progress report on breech seating grease boolits

Or maybe should be lack of progress report!!!
Thought I had a system figured out for at least a trial - ooooooops - got some boolits too hard (harder than what I tested tother day) so we had several jam ups and knock em back out with the ramrod - finally seat one - dead centre but high - crank sights down - couple more jam ups and then we dead centre but low - split the difference on sights - now we off to the side a bit - its windy - gusting around ten - jam a couple more - @$#%&* - what are we trying to do here - this is a half a$$ed plan - me father woulda said - ya went of half cocked son!! -- sooooo back to the drawin board - got five rounds of bog standard fixed ammo loaded in 2011 - slow and steady at 100yards - that wind is still trickin about - trigger aint real good - its just a cowboy gun target not so bad - an honest look at this tells me the major reason those five are not in one hole is operator malfunction NOT poor equipment - decided this (breech seating) is not worth the trouble at this point --- maybe I get properly serious with this later - need some softer lead boolits - need em heavier if its gonna make any help

[upnorthwis]

I made a breech seater for my C. Sharps .45-90. Put 5 shots in 2-1/2" at 300 yds. This was with the Lyman 535 gr. and 4895 @ 1350 fps. So I thought I was ready to be a contender at a 1000 yd. match. Didn't work out that way. The accuracy did not transfer. At this point I think it's still worth further study. But now I'm on to trying PP.

[indian joe]

I made a breech seater for my C. Sharps .45-90. Put 5 shots in 2-1/2" at 300 yds. This was with the Lyman 535 gr. and 4895 @ 1350 fps. So I thought I was ready to be a contender at a 1000 yd. match. Didn't work out that way. The accuracy did not transfer. At this point I think it's still worth further study. But now I'm on to trying PP.

Cleaning up my workspace this afternoon I found a handful of 280 grain boolits in softer alloy (knew they were there someplace !) so might give it another try tomorow - seems a pointless excercise with the normal 250 grainers tho.

[WALLNUTT]

Hard bullets are hard to seat. I use 1 part tin to 25 parts lead so they slide in easily. My 38 55 shoots best with bullets in the 330gr range.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Breech seating grease lubed boolits over blackpowder
Have read enough info on the "how" of this .. really interested in what improvement in accuracy was achieved? .. what calibres responded? (38/55 and 45/70 would be what I try)
And one question ....the PP boys use a wrapped bore size boolit and it slugs up and engraves the rifling when its shot .......can we get that to happen with an undersized grease lube boolit? --(say a .454 slug in a .457 groove barrel? would it fill out like the pp slug or no?)

I've done no more than play around with twenty or so shots this way, and it would be presumptuous to try to add much to Indian Joe's experience. Insertion tubes like his, or sometimes simpler, were used back in the day and are extremely beneficial. It is worth considering, though, how much trouble we go to with case preparation, to make sure the neck perfectly aligns the bullet with the bore axis. What we don't do in brass, we would have to do in steel.

In a chamber designed for cartridges, the chamber neck may simply come to a little shoulder, the brass's thickness in height, on joining the conical throat of the rifling. Or it may have a short cylindrical section to accommodate a cylindrical part of the bullet which protrudes from the case. Good accuracy is usually achievable even if that part is over bullet diameter, so that the bullet, unless it upsets and is squeezed down again, touches nothing but case and conical throat. An extreme example is instances like .45-70 in a .45-90 rifle or .44 Special in a .44 Magnum which tend not to perform badly. (.22 shorts in a .22LR firearm don't really count, as the bullet is of case diameter.)

I think a breech-seated bullet will suffer worse from this situation, and the counsel of perfection is a close-fitting cylindrical section of exactly bullet diameter, and the length of the bullet's cylindrical section.

As to upsetting, yes, a grooved and lubed bullet will upset if the pressure and alloy are right. But think of doing the opposite: stretching a bullet by pulling on it. It will stretch most where it is smallest in diameter, i.e. in the grooves. In the same way a bullet under pressure will expand more in the grooves than in the full-diameter spaces between them. Its something I haven't tried, and it might be that completely filling the grooves with lube, which is incompressible, makes all the difference you need. But I am highly doubtful of the practice some seem to think of as the magic bullet (so to speak), in making do with an undersize mould: simply paper-patching a grooved bullet without lube.