you guys are seriously going to start this again.
It appears so. Ah, well--Caliber Wars are fun on a slow day. I am not sure just how much can be "proven" via ballistic comparisons. All of the fomulae we use to calculate relative stopping power between calibers & loads uses one of the ballistic elements--bullet weight, bullet velocity, or bullet diameter--squares that value--and calculates a result. I prefer the Hatcher Index of Relative Stopping Power as derived from the Thompson-LaGarde tests that involved actual shooting of stockyard "beeves" (gotta love Hatcher's nomenclature). His formula does two things that other formulae don't--1) Hatcher calculates bullet mass in place of its weight, and 2) the value that Hatcher squares--bullet diameter--is the ONLY equation element that squares itself empirically in the real world.
A lot of print and bandwidth has been expended arguing the merits and flaws of the 357 Mag/10mm Auto/41 Mag compared to each other, both as felon repellent and as a hunting impliment. Sometimes the 44 Magnum--45 Colt--and 45 ACP get into the act as well. All 6 of the calibers can certainly do the jobs in both venues, and certainly won't do the wound recipients in those venues any good at all. I like having 16 W-W Silvertips on board with the first magazine in my Glock 20. It is NOT a magazine-fed 41 Magnum, but its initial load-out contains 10 more rounds than my S&W 686 x 4"--and two easily-switched magazines add 30 more bangs to the party. I like the 10mm. I like and shoot all of the other calibers I listed with the 10mm. Most of the time, I CCW with the Glock 20SF or Glock 23. I have loaded the 10mm for 25 years+, and think highly of it as a multi-purpose carry caliber.
I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.
My posts were in response to the notion that
"The 10mm is capable of launching a bullet that is heavier than most .357 mag bullets at speeds that approach or meet .357 mag velocities; so there is an energy advantage to be had."
This is wrong. I deal in fact. The 10mm has an energy disadvantage. Fact. .357 has greater penetration based on its better sectional density. .357, more energy and greater penetration with a decent sized bullet means better caliber to me. Formulas and theories like Hatcher, Taylor et al are useless. Reality and fact rule. That is common sense.
I don't care which has more power or penetration. For my most probable uses, either has more than enough of both.
My concern is for felt recoil. I can only handle so much felt recoil due to my physical capabilities. I know I can handle full power 357 mag loads out of a 6 inch Smith 686.
I need to know if the 10mm in a longslide 1911 recoils more than the 357.
That is my only concern at this point.
If I were interested in loading the 10mm down, I would just stick with a 40S&W or my 45ACP. I probably will anyway since I don't really need another caliber to reload.
My favorite caliber in a Semi-Auto is the 45 Auto. The 10MM is right up against it not a distance second. If I had to pick one it would be the 45 Auto. But a 10MM is nice.
I own all of them
like I said put the keyboard down and go and kill some game with them then come back with a real world opinion of there effectiveness. Reminds me of the guys who kill two deer with there 223 and claim its a very effective whitetail round. Come back at 20 and give a real opinion. Personally I kind of chuckle at the guys that bash the 10. It gets it from both sides. the 357 and 41 fan boys. Another thing is ive been involved in LOTs of penetration testing. At home, with my buddy and a number of times at the linebaugh seminars. Ive seen about all of them tested. First thing I will tell you is its a comparison not a test and not really even a fair comparison. Change the media your shooting into. Put a good sized shoulder bone in front to shoot through first. Use wet of dry news paper. All of it changes things drastically. One bullet that did exceptional in one testing setup can fall flat on its face in another. Ask anyone that's been at one of the linebaugh tests. I watched a couple 475s shooting 420s and 430s respectably and my 44 shooting a 340lfngc at 1300fps absolutely spank a 458 mag shooting solids. Now faced with a charging buffalo which would you choose???????? REAL WORLD my friend. Because your 357 travels farther in wet news print doesn't mean its a more effective killing round. Not unless your shooting paper mache animals.
Last edited by ReloaderFred; 04-14-2018 at 06:55 PM.
I have a RIA, Model 52,000 (Longslide) in 10mm that weighs nearly 3lbs unloaded and it comes from the manafacture with a 20lb recoil spring. I also have a GP100 with a 6” barrel. They are very similar in felt recoil to me.
I run 8.5 grains of Longshot using the Lee 401-175 cast boolits for every day range loads (1255 fps). For hunting/woods carry, 13grains of AA# 9 with a 200 grain WFN (1300 FPS).
Internal ballistics (ignition to bullet at muzzle crown) is an exact science. External ballistics (bullet at muzzle crown to target surface) is an exact science. Factor in (or out) the variables, and the result is very predictable with high confidence.
Terminal ballistics--the bullet's behavior from the time it touches the target until it comes to rest--is at best a poorly-understood art form that purports to be scientific. Way too many variables in the equation to make reliable predictions of outcomes. This applies equally to warfare, self-defense shooting, and to the hunting fields. In all three venues the "quarry" is thin-skinned warm-blooded creatures ranging to 300#, with a few larger exceptions like bison and larger bears or a few African species. I don't like to lecture or counsel folks a lot, but one thing I would keep in mind when it comes to stopping bad critters on 2 or 4 legs--don't treat the engagement the way anglers treat their fishing experiences--with a fetish for light tackle, tiny barbless hooks, and fine leaders. Use enough gun & caliber. That ultra-light fixation will get your sorry *** killed.
Lloyd--Plain speaking and common sense has gotten me into trouble here from time to time over the years. If it occurs again, oh well. Some folks just need their truth parceled out in small increments, and choke on larger dosages. A lot of what occurs during these Caliber Wars discussions reminds me of medieval alchemists, churchmen, philosophers, and other like & similar frauds discussing "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"
I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.
Since I don't hunt with a handgun and the largest, nastiest beast I will possibly need defense from while walking in the woods is a coyote, bobcat, possibly a cougar, or two legged wolf, almost any decent cartridge from 38 special on up will do nicely.
My theory on self defense handguns is simple. Pick something you can shoot well. Hit whatever you are shooting at in a place that hurts them the most. Put several holes in there. I don't expect a single shot to stop any threat.
I have to consider what I am physically able to shoot accurately, consistently, and confidently(getting old stinks). I won't carry a handgun I can't control well. I also don't want to waste a bunch of money buying and testing handguns I may have zero use for.
It is hard to find any gun range that has 1911 pistols in 10mm you can test fire around here. That is why I asked the original question.
Since I already own a couple of very nice 1911 pistols in 45ACP, I expect I can wait until I run across someone who has a 10mm at the range that I frequent.
Thank you all for your input.
I have plenty of hunting handguns so the next logical step for me was a 10MM semi automatic. I am not arguing the power differences or recoil results. The difference in recoil between a 10MM Ruger SR10 and a 6" GP100 .357 are negligible. If you can handle one you can handle the other. Right now I am shooting 165 gr Sierras at 1300 fps in 10MM and I believe they will go deer hunting this year. I would not hesitate to get one.
"A lot of what occurs during these Caliber Wars discussions reminds me of medieval alchemists, churchmen, philosophers, and other like & similar frauds discussing "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"
As long as it is a level playing field when comparing it is okay. I am a revolver person but I have been guilty of comparing a 5 inch semi auto to a 5 inch revolver. Not the same. The semi auto has a 5 inch barrel including chamber. A 5 inch revolver has a barrel 5 inches long excluding chamber. Flash gap be darned. Barrel and chamber included is a level playing field.
Again I am a revolver person, but I want to be fair.
Right
This allows you to compare and play around with not not these calibers but different delivery options too.
The 357 mag that shoot are one Chiappa snubby I really like carrying that gun when rising my MTB bike. Potent little revolver when loaded for self defense. The other favorite is a Henry brass carbine. That gun is absolute joy to shoot.
Now 10mm I have many. Several Long-slide 1911 in 10 and a Glock model 40 with a 7" KKM and a Trijicon RMR mounted on top. I have the reliable model 20 and a commander length custom from Reeder which is RIA 1911. I also have Kriss Vector carbine in 10. One of my favorites is my G2 carbine with rear folding stock and 18" barrel it is tack driver and really loves my 200 gran GC WFN. The 10 does not really see much benefit with Power Pistol in barrels over 7" my carbine and Glock are within 50 FPS in velocity. I shoot allot of 10mm I have dedicated progressive press setup for the 10mm only. Great caliber fun bunch guns to shoot all searving a purpose.
The only 41 caliber in handgun is a Reeder 41 GNR that is a 44 necked down to 41 caliber it is hammer and powerful little gun that I would not hesitate shooting an elk with.
The truth be told for self defense on day to day basis I carry a 45 ACP or a nine in the summer. Full size I love my Springfield 1911 but the gun with capacity and I shoot really well in 45 is my PPQ. I just shoot that gun really well. For deep concealment my Springfiled XDS IWB fills that need. Pocket carry is a Smith and Wesson 642 loaded with Ranger JHP.
I see no value in caliber wars each person needs to make a decision for themselves using information and expereince they gleen from research and personal experience.
Like I said I own them all and many more.
My latest affliction is the 450 Bushmaster these are great little rifles and working with them is fun and interesting.
So buy what turns your fancy and shoot them allot and have fun and become proficient.
I want an 8.5 inch AR pistol in 450!!!!
I had a extremely accurate Glock 20 and I didn't think the recoil was any different than my 1911's maybe a little snappy but nothing that the average person couldn't handle. Its a great round and I got rid of mine when I couldn't find any brass at a reasonable price. Wish I still had it.
BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
GC | Gas Check |