80 percent lower

[Lloyd Smale]

obviously they have no serial number. Would a gun built with one even be considered a gun. It isn't logged with the batf as a handgun or a rifle. Could you build it anyway you want or does it still have to be built according to batf guidelines? example would be. Could I build a short barred rifle without a stamp? Or do you have to apply for a serial number after you build the gun?

[Ramjet-SS]

Possession of a SBR without the proper paper work will get you into a pickle so to speak. The question is why poke the bear? Any lower I have pruchased has the serial number and the paper work has been filled out. The recent case law involving 3D printers has been challenged I think and it was considered violation of the law in regards to mfg of a gun. Now if your lower was used to house a barrel that was loaded from the muzzle that would change things completely.

[Lloyd Smale]

well I do know that you can build an AR on one without a serial number legally. Its a loophole in the law and one they do want to close but you are not going to jail at least today for building one. My question isn't if an 16 inch ar15 on one is legal. that's a given. My question is would it even be considered a firearm. Would it fall into that same grey area those pistol grip shotguns are today. They even have a serial number but are considered non firearms because they don't fall into the batfs decription on what a rifle, shotgun or handgun is.

[HATCH]

obviously they have no serial number. Would a gun built with one even be considered a gun. It isn't logged with the batf as a handgun or a rifle. Could you build it anyway you want or does it still have to be built according to batf guidelines? example would be. Could I build a short barred rifle without a stamp? Or do you have to apply for a serial number after you build the gun?

The GCA defines the term “firearm” as: (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or Page 2 receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device.

A virgin receiver can be assembled in any configuration that you want. It can be a pistol or a rifle as it isn't logged into a book saying it was designed one way or the other.

Now, can you build a short barrel rifle without a stamp??? Sure you can. But it would be in violation of the law. Just like you CAN make machine guns. silencers, ect but without the proper paperwork and tax stamp its against the law.

You don't "apply for a serial #". You just make one up and put it on it.

Serial Number
Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame or receiver
The serial number cannot duplicate the serial number appearing on any other firearm the manufacture has made before

Name of Manufacturer
Must be conspicuously engraved, cast or stamped (impressed) on the firearm frame, receiver, barrel or slide


Now, concerning NFA items (short barrel rifles, AOW, Short barrel shotgun, ect), you must have approved paperwork in hand prior to the manufacture of such devices.
When it comes to AR receivers, it isn't a SBR until you put a short barrel and a butt stock on it.
I own several SBRs. All were built on commercial receivers but it doesn't matter.
I sent the lower receiver off to get my NFA markings done (Name, City, State)
I sent in a Form 1 with a $200 check.
I ordered my parts (10.5 inch upper)
I waited the 6 months or so for my approved form 1 to arrive.
I assembled my lower and upper.

[KenH]

Mr Hatch has covered the NFA side nicely. For non-NFA items (not a SBR, suppressor, etc) you are allowed to buy your own rifle, pistol, shotgun, etc as long as the finished product does NOT fit the description of SBR, etc. To do this you are allowed to make the receiver yourself from scratch. From the ATF view the so-called 80% receivers are just a block of metal and fit the same category as a block of metal.

The ATF doesn't require you notify them, engrave a serial number or model number when you build the weapon. "IF" you decide to sell the weapon then it MUST have an engraved serial number. edit to add: Did a bit of research and found this page that seems to have valid info indicating even a serial number is NOT required when selling home-built weapon.

http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2...emade-firearm/

Since you are NOT allowed to build a weapon for sell without a manuf's license, it is usually accepted a 1 yr must/should pass after building before decision to sell. Some states require the manuf name, model, and serial number at time of manuf. This is a state requirement, not ATF.

In the case of the AR platform, if you decide to build an AR pistol, the AFT does NOT allow you to rebuild a rifle by removing the 16"+ barrel, and replace the buffer tube and stock with pistol buffer. So, if building an AR from scratch (80% lower, etc) it's generally accepted as best to describe it to be built as a pistol (say as model AR-P for model to indicate it's for a pistol because the ATF allows conversion from pistol, but not rifle to pistol. Once it's a pistol, it's always a pistol even if a 16" barrel and stock is added.

I "think" I've got all the above correct as of this writing, as seen before the ATF does change their rules in mid-stream sometimes - i.e. Sig arm brace.

[rancher1913]

the only hassle you will have is IF you try to sell it, or one of your heirs tries to sell it.

[Earlwb]

As mentioned already, if you have a completed 80% receiver no FFL dealer will buy or sell it. You also cannot legally sell it to anyone else either. Your beneficiary could inherit it though. But there is some gray area with that. Some states have banned them too.

[HATCH]

That is not entirely true.

I can mill out a 80%, do a Form 1 SBR (which includes putting my name, city state in the receiver) and I can sell it after I shoot it
Form 1's allow you as an individual to manufacture NFA items (besides machine guns)

But to be honest, besides a feather in my hat saying that I made a 80% receiver into a 100%, there is no reason to mess with 80% as completed factory made receivers are so cheap

[KenH]

Hatch is correct, as far as the ATF is concerned you can sell a rifle or pistol made from an 80% lower. The Form 1 is NOT required as long as it's NOT a NFA item (SBR, etc). You can NOT made one to sell, nor as a gift to anybody else, not even a family member. While the ATF has not spec'd a time frame that determines it's ok to sell, it's my understanding you should allow a year to pass after manuf before selling.

The above is per ATF regs, some states will have other rules/laws. Calif for instance does allow you to manuf your own weapon, either from scratch or using an 80% receiver, but it must be marked about the same as a NFA item with manuf name, model, serial number, and place of manuf.

Hatch - isn't the above your understanding also?

[Soundguy]

well I do know that you can build an AR on one without a serial number legally. Its a loophole in the law and one they do want to close but you are not going to jail at least today for building one. My question isn't if an 16 inch ar15 on one is legal. that's a given. My question is would it even be considered a firearm. Would it fall into that same grey area those pistol grip shotguns are today. They even have a serial number but are considered non firearms because they don't fall into the batfs decription on what a rifle, shotgun or handgun is.

Your post is very, very confused.

Those folding stock pistil grip FIREARMS that happen to shoot shotgun shells are not SBS, but ARE firearms.

A receiver past 80% ( fire control cut out, etc ), is a firearm.

On the ATF page there are faq's that cover this. it isn't a loophole, it just is how the law is worded. You don't have to have a license to manufacture a firearm for your personal use. It doesn't have to have a serial number, but they suggest that you should serialize it. If you transfer the gun, it then needs to have a serial number.

If you make a SBS, SBR, AOW, etc.. you have to follow NFA rules and apply and get your tax stamp first.

This is easy stuff. just follow the laws.

[Lloyd Smale]

so wading through this I get some conflicts of opinion. Let me ask it this way then. If I got a 80 percent lower, didn't serial number it and never sold it could I build a short barreled rifle (4 *** rifle stock) and not have to get a tax stamp? don't worry guys I don't intend to do it. Ive got two AR pistols with arm braces that work just fine for me and I don't need a short barreled rifle. Nothing to gain in my opinion. I really don't even see any advantage to doing a 80 percent lower when I can buy finished ones for 50 bucks.

[Soundguy]

yes, you 'could' build an illegal short barreled rifle with no tax stamp and then get a fine and a free stay in a federal prison.

Is this the answer you are not looking for? It's been made very, very clear.

All NFA rules ALWAYS apply.

Yes you can make a personal firearm from an 80%

Yes you can file a form 1 to make an SBR.

Yes you MUST do both for it to be legal.

[lancem]

so wading through this I get some conflicts of opinion. Let me ask it this way then. If I got a 80 percent lower, didn't serial number it and never sold it could I build a short barreled rifle (4 *** rifle stock) and not have to get a tax stamp? don't worry guys I don't intend to do it. Ive got two AR pistols with arm braces that work just fine for me and I don't need a short barreled rifle. Nothing to gain in my opinion. I really don't even see any advantage to doing a 80 percent lower when I can buy finished ones for 50 bucks.

No is the short sweet answer.

[Lloyd Smale]

thanks guys