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Thread: PC'd, GC'd and Swaged boolits!

  1. #41
    Boolit Bub



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    Does anyone have experience casting with a harder lead alloy (wheel weight) and using that bullet to swage into a perfect shape? I know swaging dies are designed for pure lead (or really close to pure) and would hate to break a set of dies.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by rayraywolf View Post
    Does anyone have experience casting with a harder lead alloy (wheel weight) and using that bullet to swage into a perfect shape? I know swaging dies are designed for pure lead (or really close to pure) and would hate to break a set of dies.
    Traditional swaging used soft lead to flow and help shape the jacket.

    With no metal jacket, dead soft is no longer needed.

    My recent efforts have been medium soft. Mostly range lead, with some lead from a local scrap yard that when blended turned out to be similar hardness to my range lead.

    Medium hard should be workable, but only if the amount of desired shape change is on the small side.

    I would call air cooled clip on wheel weights (COWW) as medium to medium hard.

    Water quench COWW would be probably be pushing things unless you are talking 22 cal or really stout tooling (press, dies, etc).

    Why are you interested in using WW. I used straight COWW in past when I could get it reasonably easy. COWW is getting much harder to find. Now I horde what little I still have for mixing with other scrap to get more hardness for special applications.

    Medium soft is working pretty good for me. For all but a few applications, I think it is much better than the COWW.
    Last edited by P Flados; 09-02-2018 at 11:13 PM.

  3. #43
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    I recently got into casting by buying someone else's setup. With all the stuff I bought was about 40 LBs of COWW. I also have about 10 LBs of roofing lead. Before buying the casting equipment, I bought a RCE swaging press with dies for .45 and .44. I have not had the time to swage or cast yet, but I'm going to make time soon. I'm kind of looking at my options with the equipment I have on hand.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by rayraywolf View Post
    I recently got into casting by buying someone else's setup. With all the stuff I bought was about 40 LBs of COWW. I also have about 10 LBs of roofing lead. Before buying the casting equipment, I bought a RCE swaging press with dies for .45 and .44. I have not had the time to swage or cast yet, but I'm going to make time soon. I'm kind of looking at my options with the equipment I have on hand.
    50 lbs may seem like plenty at this point.

    It will be gone before you know it.

    If possible, I recommned that you search for local reliable sources such as tire stores, ranges that will let you gather lead, roofing contractors, or scrap metal dealers. If you use your COWW at this point, you may find it hard to replace. Scrap yards are probably the most reliable and cost should beat mail order, but rarely will you find any "bargains". For me, another downside to the scrap yard is that most of their stuff was dead soft. The soft is frequently thin sheets (roof vents and other misc sheets).
    Last edited by P Flados; 09-04-2018 at 09:17 PM.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by alfloyd View Post
    I am still working on the sub-sonic loads to fully cycle my AR.
    The super-sonic loads work great.
    Lafaun
    Will weigh in on this first. At one time I had three 300 BO's and a barrel to build a fourth. In my opinion the only thing the BO is good for is subsonic (supersonic 5.56, 6.5, 6.8 & more are better)) and are much better subsonic options. (As an FYI have been wrenching on AR's since the late 70's and building since mid 80's. Have built over 75+ complete AR's in 13 cartridges and another 100+ uppers and repaired/rebuilt hundreds of malfunctioning uppers) Carbine length gas is 7" and pistol length is 4". Bullet needs adequate dwell time in bore after passes port to build pressure to unlock bolt and cycle action without short stroking.

    If discussing subsonic will assume a suppressor will be used which ads some additional back pressure. My rule is for carbine length is 11.5"/12.5" minimum. 10.5" carbine is sketchy unless has suppressor and possibly enlarged port. All shorter need to be built on pistol length gas to get enough dwell time of projectile in barrel when using lower power subsonic loads. 300 BO has surged in popularity, been praised by writers trying to sell suppressors and rifles for their sponsors but have seen more Kabooms associated with 300 BO ammo than all others. Local range can be busy on weekends, groups will share benches when it's share or wait in line. Get a couple guys with 300 BO and another couple with 5.56 sharing a bench and someone acidentally shoves a mag load of 300 BO in a 5.56 rifle and Kaboom. At one point the local range officers said had two to three 5.56 rifles per day on Saturday blown up when someone accidentally shoved a 300 BO mag in the 5.56. Average week were seeing at least five rifles blown up and as many as ten. It's a very popular public range with only $20 per year membership. Month before deer season opens it's a line from open till closes for a bench afternoons and weekends.

    I only go on weekday mornings it's so bad now. I believe we need to step back, hit the reset button and change the specs to the 7.62 Wilson case that will not allow bolt to close in a 5.56. Half the brass or more for 300 BO running around the reloading community is converted 5.56 and the 5.56 headstamp on 300 BO handloads doesn't help at all. If your rifle is working fine with full power but not subsonic there is one main cause. Inadequate gas from too little dwell time or under gas situation. 1 out of 12 factory uppers work on have misaligned blocks (if working on them its because owner doesn't want to send back to factory and shipped misaligned) and half the home builds are not fully aligned. With so many specs on shoulder of gas journal to gas port on rifle and length from end of block to port is not standard especially wit aftermarket parts. Seen people remove a milspec handguard and front sight tower, slap on a low profile gas block and free float forearm with port only partially aligned due to lack of the spacer forearm end cap provided and misclocked gas blocks. First determine if gas block is right then if has proper weight buffer, still doesn't work then have to open gas port. If have a 5.56 and 300 BO close to each other always have a chance of a mistake.

    Using E=MC2 and limit your speed to the sound barrier only way to increase energy is with heavier bullets. Magazine length in an AR 15 really hampers this with 300 Whisper aka BO. I belive the "Whisper" original name drew a large number of tacticool people to the cartridge and then cost of the trademarked name pushed the market toward the BO and we have tons of 5.56 brass converted to BO causing confusion. My subsonic AR's are all 458 SOCOM's now as can choose a 330 grain copper solid to 550 grain cast bullet doubling the muzzle energy of the 300 BO and never worry about a magazine mixup blowing up a rifle. Currently own 5.7×28, 223/5.56/Wylde, 6.8 and 458 SOCOM and can't mix up a magazine causing a Kaboom. For safety believe the BO shoulder should be pushed out similar to the 7.62 Wilson then all barrels/uppers sent to factory for chambers to be reamed. Of course in the end this will be as confusing as all the old 6.8 spc I versus 6.8 spc II chambers though not as damgerous. If you 300 is not working with subsonic rounds then you need to start at gas port then buffer, try a Tubb Flatwire buffer spring or open the gas port. Does your BO have an adjustable gas block? If not it will then be overgassed with full power ammo. All my BO's ran opened ports with Superlative Arms or MicroMOA Govnah adjustable gas blocks till all four barrels were sold and brass went in scrap bucket.

    This swaging a cast bullet is very interesting to me. As metioned, have learned multicavity Lee molds are inconsistent and break sprue cutter cams till replaced with steel. I use Ideal, Lyman, NOE and RCBS. Do have some custom blocks but all holes drop consistent weights. If running fast and molds heat up its not uncommon to have longer rifle boolits bend when drop from mold. I run three big bottom pour pots, one with wheel weights alloy, one with Lyman #2 and another with a hard alloy use for gas check rifle bullets.

    Have seven Lubrisizers so am not swapping dies and top punches almost daily. I use gas checks on 85% of rifle boolits. Have a commercial paint booth at work with 12 to 16 HVLP's from touch up to base coat/clear coat sprayers, agitating cup SATA's for metallic and pearls. Also have a powder coat setup use on motorcycle frames so swapping from traditional size and lube would not be a big deal but has worked for me for 40+ years. The idea of powder coating my rifle boolits then swaging for a super consistent shape that with a gas check firmly attached am feeling another 100 fps and another 1/4 to 1/2 MOA based on boolit and design. This may make more sense than traditional swaged bullets in many cases for me. What a rocking idea.

    What is anticipated cost on this type die? Will you be matching them to popular cast boolit molds or will it be a custom order thing? I can see how one die might mash boolits from two or three different molds. I like to set my loads up with limited free bore from ogive to rifling. This concept will make this easier in semi autos with your flat tip design shortening OAL of boolit. In my bolt rifles will want a spire point as a nice properly pointed "cast" bullet will be a game changer whether use traditional lube or powder coat.
    For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions. 2 Timothy 4:3

  6. #46
    Boolit Master

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    I have kind of spun this idea around and a around some . To me what makes the most sense is to make a PC only mold, with no grease grooves, set the dia up so the PC bullet is about the right size. Cast some, shoot some, see how you like them.

    Then if one wants to try swaging, size the bullet smaller, PC it, then swage it. To me the swage die works nicer if the bullet does not have any pressure on it when it starts into the die. Then if one really really loves it, then just buy a mold that casts smaller in the first place ....if your deeply in love sell the "PC as cast" mold to the next guy beginning the madness .

    Drastically reshaping is not an issue....for cosmetic purposes starting with no lube grooves to begin with will IMHO make a prettier bullet.

    Bill
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willbird View Post
    I have kind of spun this idea around and a around some . To me what makes the most sense is to make a PC only mold, with no grease grooves, set the dia up so the PC bullet is about the right size. Cast some, shoot some, see how you like them.

    Then if one wants to try swaging, size the bullet smaller, PC it, then swage it. To me the swage die works nicer if the bullet does not have any pressure on it when it starts into the die. Then if one really really loves it, then just buy a mold that casts smaller in the first place ....if your deeply in love sell the "PC as cast" mold to the next guy beginning the madness .

    Drastically reshaping is not an issue....for cosmetic purposes starting with no lube grooves to begin with will IMHO make a prettier bullet.

    Bill
    My main driver in starting down this path was trying to get better edges at the side to base junction. Many of my molds give me at least a little flashing on a small fraction of the boolits. Even with molds that do better than average for the base, I still find a few that are not perfect at the edge of the base, but the imperfection takes a hard look to spot (instead of a quick glance).

    Since I am going to size the boolit anyhow, why not do one step better and get the base near perfect with a forming operation.

    And then I thought, as long as doing some forming, why not make the nose look better. So I made up some dies and before long I got what I was looking for. And then I figured out that I could either size down or "bump up" in the process such that any mold that is even close to the right size works fine.

    Because Lee likes to market molds as "will usually work fine without sizing", this increase the chances that a Lee mold will drop smaller than you really want. When not using the cast + PC + forming approach, it is a sad day when you find that your mold drops boolits too small for your gun. This happend to me with a 6 cavity 158 TL RN (for all of my guns) and my 6 cavity 120 TC (for 1 out of 5 guns). The "too small" issue is now just a memory for both of these molds.

    And for those expressing concerns about Lee molds, I have plenty and have found that all (with one exception that is now "retired") will produce very consistent boolits (if I do my part). Any correct weight boolit can work pretty good when used for the cast + PC + forming approach. The Lee tolerances on mold diameters is not "bad", it is just a choice they made to fit the market the want to sell to.

    The above explains why I think that cast + PC + forming can be a good idea even with existing molds.

    I also share the feeling that special no groove molds with matched forming dies could improve final boolit shape with everything concentric, square and the correct diameter(s). However, those interesting in this type of thing will generally want very specific diameters. This would make it a challenge to market mass produced forming dies without a huge (and therefore expensive) inventory of sizes. Using custom "made to order" dies would avoid the inventory issue, but custom is way less efficient and way more cost.

  8. #48
    Boolit Master

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    There are so many factors involved in hitting the as cast dia right on the money. alloy, casting temp, etc. But just for making cores even near net shape perhaps reworking an off the shelf mold would be cheapest. In .358 the 125-358-RF might be a good canditate. Thinking to reverse beagle it by milling enough off each face to close it up enough to allow cleanup to cast a .354 or so bullet.
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  9. #49
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    My main driver in starting down this path was trying to get better edges at the side to base junction. My solution to that problem is a very short GC shank (20-30 thous.), no GC. Seats square and base edge is perfect (easy to cull the poor pours). Rifle moulds have a very small groove to collect 'moved' alloy. The other solution is nose pour mould.
    Whatever!

  10. #50
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    My main driver in starting down this path was trying to get better edges at the side to base junction. My solution to that problem is a very short GC shank (20-30 thous.), no GC. Seats square and base edge is perfect (easy to cull the poor pours). Rifle moulds have a very small groove to collect 'moved' alloy. The other solution is nose pour mould.
    I have cast 200 grain 452 bullets that shot into 1-1/4" for 5 shots at 50 yards out of a Ransom rest...I did make a heavy O-1 sprue plate for the mold...the steel selection was just because I had it on hand. The nose pour I thought some theorized that it shifted casting flaws to the nose...which was more sensitive than the base, as far as voids and such ?? The point pour was very popular in sheutzen days...one thing it offers is the ability to easily change bullet length with a moveable base punch in the mold. But overall the whole scheutzen concept is employing fairly short/fat bullets for caliber, and fairly heavy bullets too. Not sure how much will translate to a modern 6.55 mm fast twist setup as just one example ??

    I know Popper has found some stuff that works great .
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  11. #51
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    But one thing that adding a swaging operation does is allow more meplet before the bullet is swaged..which ties into trying to make a long slender point pour mold.

    Bill
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  12. #52
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    Just got a reply back from customer with these dies, he is shooting the 240ish grain HyTec coated bullet swaged in my die and getting nearly same hole accuracy at 50 yrds subsonic in his 300 BO! Also getting impressive expansion too. He reported and much improved gain in accuracy with the swaged bullets vs. strait cast!

    He sent me some pics. I'll have to up load them soon here.

    Swage on!

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  13. #53
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    Not to belittle anyone's contribution and I have no doubt that any swagged bullet that improves the concentricity over a cast bullet will be more accurate, but we need are tests using full power loads at 100 yards or more to either prove of disprove the value of swagging a precast bullet.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonheart View Post
    Not to belittle anyone's contribution and I have no doubt that any swagged bullet that improves the concentricity over a cast bullet will be more accurate, but we need are tests using full power loads at 100 yards or more to either prove of disprove the value of swagging a precast bullet.
    Not a new idea by any means , minie balls (actually bullets) were swaged ??

    Bill
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  15. #55
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    I haven't shot the 300BO yet or attempted accuracy at subsonic speeds but I read that the 230 grain cast boolits can be a challenge in the 300BO for both accuracy and expansion.

    I can only rely what my customer has shared with me......

    Lee 230 grain cast boolit swaged in my 30 cal BTSimple (PBSimple) die

    pic of recovered bullets from sand




    and 50 yrd group




    It may not be "full power" or 100 yrds but group shouldn't open up that much in the next 50 yrds.

    as quoted from customer......

    "Swage system greatly improved the accuracy and impact expansion.

    Attached are a couple of pictures. I can’t complain.

    Absolutely the best thing for cast bullets."



    Certainly looks like pretty good results. I'd be pleased, heck might have to get me a 300 BO now

    Good shooting and swage on!

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  16. #56
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Not taking away from anything or anyone but anything at 50yds really doesn't mean much IMHO.

    50yd 10-shot groups with cast bullets that were either pc'd or traditional lubed and sized to .311"
    [IMG][/IMG]



    What I did learn was that pc'd bullets are faster than their traditionally lubed counterparts. Same bullets cast at the same time. Those 311291 bullets are an excellent example. PC vs ben's red & 45/45/10 lube. Found the same thing with the lee 312 tl 160 bullet. 100-shots @ 100yds with traditional lubes ='s 2628fps.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Same bullet just pc'd 10-shot group @ 100yds ='s 2679fps
    [IMG][/IMG]

    Same 37gr load of h335 in a 308w traditional vs pc ='s a 50fps difference in velocity
    [IMG][/IMG]

  17. #57
    Boolit Master Forrest r's Avatar
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    Some bullets that I've swaged from cores.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    The 9mm bullets were ok but with any of the swaged bullets, the harder the alloy the worse the bases were with flashing etc. To stop the flashing I used a al gc from a home made gc maker. At the end of the day the 9mm swaged bullets did no better than the bullets I cast for the 9mm. A cast hybrid, modern version of the himmelwright bullet that can be used in either the 9mm or 38spl/357.
    [IMG][/IMG]
    At the end of the day I decided that if I was going to swage bullets for the pistols/revolvers I'd rather use shell cases and swage jacketed bullets.

    Those swaged 22cal bullets pictured above failed miserably. I did make a 22cal gc maker and tried swaging pc'd 22cal bullets with a gc on them. Didn't matter, just a bad bullet design!!!! The nose is too long and accuracy was destroyed from nose slump with loads that had some hp/velocity to them. Same thing with the 22cal bullets, it's just so easy to swage jacketed bullets out of 22lr cases. I do cast my own cores for the jacketed 22cal bullets from a 8-cavity mold. It's nothing to cast a pile of .185" 48gr cores in a hurry.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    I did learn a lot about swaging lead bullets with the 22cal & 9mm bullets. My real interests lie with 30cal bullets for the high powered rifles. I've done some work swaging/testing the 30cal's & I'll have to post what I've done/learned so far. I do most of my testing/shooting in the winter months and this years testing is right around the corner.

  18. #58
    Boolit Master

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    As far as that slump goes, I have seen it in 357 maximum even with factory loads that used jacketed bullets, the fired bullet was much shorter than it stared out. That was Remington 180 grain factory stuff. 0-2000 fps in 10" has side effects .
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  19. #59
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    50 yrd group customer simply reported the swaged 230 grain pill shot considerably better then the "as cast" at same distance in his firearm.

    Take it for what it's worth.

    Swage on!

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  20. #60
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    Not taking away from anything or anyone but anything at 50yds really doesn't mean much IMHO.



    It means a lot if the groups showed evidence that one particular bullet shot better then the other no matter the distance.

    In this case the cast Lee 230 grain bullet is quite a bit different then it is after it was exiting the swage die.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check