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Thread: PC'd, GC'd and Swaged boolits!

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    Brian, does the coating provide sufficient lubrication for the swaging, or do you also give them a little extra something?
    I've found with PC it ejects from the dies easier than lubed lead does.
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  2. #22
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    In another thread, I have discussed my efforts to use a "low tech" version of "swaging" to reshape boolits after applying PC. Here is a Lee 158 TL converted to something I hope will meet my needs better:


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  3. #23
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    Few comments:
    1) swaging cast Boolits won't change the weight of any of them. A poorly made multi cavity mold will make Boolits that vary from cavity to cavity. Swaging won't fix that. Only make Boolits with high quality molds. Lee molds are notorious for inaccuracy of weight from cavity to cavity.
    2) swaging WILL make the Boolits more concentric which will, indeed, make the Boolits more accurate.
    3) swaging can also change the nose profile to a more accurate nose, making the Boolit more accurate.

    So, if you are going to use a swage die to modify your Boolits, whether pistol or rifle, use a high quality mold to get the best results.

    I have an old CH4D Swage-OMatic press, and use it to convert some 147 grain 9mm round nose Boolits to .358 semi wad cutter 38's. The concept is solid, and Brian offers an up to date option to the old ch4d gear.


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  4. #24
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    Duke , I have found you are right on about the variation in multi-cavity Lee Molds.

  5. #25
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    Question on this. Assuming you have a core making die that will allow you to get the right bullet weight. Can you then simply use the point forming die to shape the bullet. Powder coat it then run it through the point forming die again to get the concentric shape back? If so it seems that you could use the gas check to up the velocity without the added cost of copper tubing for jackets. This is coming from DukeInForida's comment.

  6. #26
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    Yep! You could even swage the core, powder coat the cylindrical shape of lead, then do one point form operation. Properly applied powder coat will survive the point form. That would save a step..

    Quote Originally Posted by Gumberc563 View Post
    Question on this. Assuming you have a core making die that will allow you to get the right bullet weight. Can you then simply use the point forming die to shape the bullet. Powder coat it then run it through the point forming die again to get the concentric shape back? If so it seems that you could use the gas check to up the velocity without the added cost of copper tubing for jackets. This is coming from DukeInForida's comment.

  7. #27
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    This is basically what I have been saying for sometime now. A properly coated and cured PC bullet is a polymer jacketed bullet and the polymer performs as a jacket. So we can create a jacketed bullet but the problem with our cast bullets is they come out of the mold non-concentric (lopsided) and the polymer jacket does nothing to correct this. A lopsided bullet is going to wobble in flight and as as the distance increases the wobble gets worse. This is the reason short range accuracy may be fair, but at distance not good at all. A swagged bullet should come out of the die concentric, assuming the die is properly made. A gas check is actually not needed on a PC bullet to perform gas seal and protect from gas cutting the polymer will do that, but a gas check set completely perpendicular with a perfectly flat base should be a great aid in accuracy. I think what is really needed are reasonably priced swag dies that would mate to bullet molds that were made for PC. This could create a new era in cast bullets.

  8. #28
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    Two observations from several years of playing with "Swaged HF Powder Coated" rifle boolits (.224 and .308).


    (1) Since the cast boolit is actually a "Donor Core"; any inclusions in the boolit (debris or air voids) will still be there and although swaging may help; it will not overcome poor casting techniques (will not turn a reject boolit/core into an accurate swaged PC'd boolit).

    (2) The Swaged & PC'd rifle boolit will still not meet the accuracy at higher velocities (and distances) of a copper/gilding metal jacketed bullet. The polymer may be tough; and copper infused alloys, and heat treating can support increased velocities - yet there will be a velocity where accuracy drops off (particularly at longer distances such as 300 yards and further) with higher velocities. Both my .224 and .308 swaged bullets using copper tubing or gilding metal (brass cases) as jackets perform better than PC'd & Swaged Boolits of the same profile and weight.

    I still chase the holy grail of improving my swaged/PC boolits; but to be honest to myself and others there is still a delta between the accuracy at distance between the two type of Swaged Boolits. (By the way; I use .014 Amerimax for gas checks on all my Swaged/PC'd boolits).
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  9. #29
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    I have played a little recently, a few thoughts.
    I agree that the PC bullets seem to require less lube than a naked bullet when swaging.
    Do not be afraid to try running them in backwards ...they reform nice either way.
    If you swage them right after PC, or re bake them...they are softer than if they have laid around age hardening for a few months...so they swage easier.

    As for the cavity to cavity variation...I have only played with one Lee mold so far but it was pretty decent, I'm thinking about putting a .06" bleed hole right in the center of a base punch to let the volume equalize out in whatever is pushed out that hole.

    The added volume from PC is readily noticeable...requires a die position adjustment if you setup to swage naked bullets, vs swaging the same exact batch of bullets post PC.

    These were swaged naked base first (nose became base and vice versa)...then PC, then lightly re swaged...that is the prettiest results I have gotten. The base punch in this case is .355 which explains the slight base defect.



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  10. #30
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    Willbird,

    I feel your frustration with the bases.

    Even when my punches were a pretty close fit in the dies, I would get the same thing.

    Now, I am trying to get the boolits close to final shape and a bit a little small on the OD before the last pass. Then I am pushing it base first into a die that only has a small ID hole for the ejection rod. The punch has the nose shape. See post 22 and take a good look at the nice edges on the bases.

    If you want the last pass to be nose first, you may want to put a bevel on the base prior to the last pass. Then on the last pass, apply just enough to swage it out to a flat base without extruding into the gap.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Flados View Post
    Willbird,

    I feel your frustration with the bases.

    Even when my punches were a pretty close fit in the dies, I would get the same thing.

    Now, I am trying to get the boolits close to final shape and a bit a little small on the OD before the last pass. Then I am pushing it base first into a die that only has a small ID hole for the ejection rod. The punch has the nose shape. See post 22 and take a good look at the nice edges on the bases.

    If you want the last pass to be nose first, you may want to put a bevel on the base prior to the last pass. Then on the last pass, apply just enough to swage it out to a flat base without extruding into the gap.
    Hmm interesting , time and experimentation will tell ...one swage die mfg says he can make a die that will make a nicer base. My next step I think is to make a mold that is near net shape for what I want, and see if that shape is accurate, if it is, then go ahead and have a swage die made.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willbird View Post
    Hmm interesting , time and experimentation will tell ...one swage die mfg says he can make a die that will make a nicer base. My next step I think is to make a mold that is near net shape for what I want, and see if that shape is accurate, if it is, then go ahead and have a swage die made.
    Standard wisdom is that having a uniform edge on the base is a big deal for accuracy. For any no-jacket swaging effort, I like the idea of the last or next to last swage going in base first to get this feature as good as possible.

    The only time I plan to do the last swage as "not base first" is when I am going for a reduced diameter forward portion similar to a nose rider. I have done some 30 cal stuff that way. As an example, the boolit below is a 70 gr for a 32 cal pistol round.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by P Flados; 08-28-2018 at 07:30 PM.

  13. #33
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    Excellent input by all, if enough start thinking and working on a problem then a solution will follow.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by P Flados View Post
    Standard wisdom is that having a uniform edge on the base is a big deal for accuracy. For any no-jacket swaging effort, I like the idea of the last or next to last swage going in base first to get this feature as good as possible.

    The only time I plan to do the last swage as "not base first" is when I am going for a reduced diameter forward portion similar to a nose rider. I have done some 30 cal stuff that way. As an example, the boolit below is a 70 gr for a 32 cal pistol round.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    If my limited understanding is correct a tangent or secant ogive does not work well using the punch to shape the Ogive ? At least not with a jacket...the pressure might swage the punch tight into the die due to the punch being so thin where the ogive is tangent to the body ?? That is why the older dies that form the nose with a punch, or even newer ones for that matter usually make a semiwadcutter style bullet ?

    Might work better with a monolithic bullet made from lead-tin-antimony tho. I agree a perfect base would be best. But unless we are completely swaging the bullet to 100% volume we do not have control of the shape and concentrically ?? just thinking out loud here. The typical uses of swage dies have a bullet jacket sitting on top of the base punch..maybe it is tough enough to seal that punch/die interface better ??
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  15. #35
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    Swaging with GC installed should keep the base square.
    Whatever!

  16. #36
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    Willbird,

    My nose forming punch was made from a piece a soft scrap steel.

    It is holding up ok partially because I am not pushing it too hard but also the die body is adding some support.

    I like the idea of no-jacket swaging where a big potential advantage is that you can do a lot with a medium duty press and greatly reduced loads on the dies and punches. Medium hardness (~10 BHN), a mold with close to final shape, and slightly undersized boolits (bumping up is much easier than sizing down) all help.

    The punch is leaving a very small step on my 35 cal 160s. If I want to use some of my W1 drill rod, I could easily make a hardened nose punch that would allow either an even smaller step, and/or in getting the boolit even more "pointed".

    I do not have any samples available right now, but I did play around with some starting shapes made up specifically to confirm that a "no step" final form is possible. With the starting OD much smaller at the "end of punch location", just stop the insertion before the metal "extrudes" out over the small edge on the end of the punch.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Popper,

    Stooping to using gas checks when not absolutely needed can stop someone from reaching the even better final destination (As cast + PC coating with no other "consumables" needed).
    Last edited by P Flados; 08-29-2018 at 09:33 PM.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by popper View Post
    Swaging with GC installed should keep the base square.
    IN my case anyway the gas check is so ductile that it extrudes out too . Mold makers refer to it as "flashing over" maybe...some I have known have said how tight an injection cavity mold had to be by saying the material would flash over or some such in to a .002" gap.
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  18. #38
    Boolit Grand Master OS OK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonheart View Post
    This is basically what I have been saying for sometime now. A properly coated and cured PC bullet is a polymer jacketed bullet and the polymer performs as a jacket. So we can create a jacketed bullet but the problem with our cast bullets is they come out of the mold non-concentric (lopsided) and the polymer jacket does nothing to correct this. A lopsided bullet is going to wobble in flight and as as the distance increases the wobble gets worse. This is the reason short range accuracy may be fair, but at distance not good at all. A swagged bullet should come out of the die concentric, assuming the die is properly made. A gas check is actually not needed on a PC bullet to perform gas seal and protect from gas cutting the polymer will do that, but a gas check set completely perpendicular with a perfectly flat base should be a great aid in accuracy. I think what is really needed are reasonably priced swag dies that would mate to bullet molds that were made for PC. This could create a new era in cast bullets.
    Agree 100% . . . would be nice to get them in sets.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonheart View Post
    I think what is really needed are reasonably priced swag dies that would mate to bullet molds that were made for PC. This could create a new era in cast bullets.
    Currently there is really not much of a market for mold + forming dies (I call them this to to highlight the "useable in any press" difference) that leverage off of the "no jacket" swaging concept. This is entirely understandable given the lack of publicly available "testimonies" as to the advantages of this approach.

    This forum is the one of the best chances a few pioneers have to influence the mold/die buying public to make them eager to jump on a "new and improved" method for getting "good as jacketed" performance from Cast + PC + Formed boolits that require no other consumables (yes I mean no gas checks).

    To be accurate, "good as jacketed" performance needs to include "it just works" in 90% of the intended guns without a lot of excess "fiddling around".

    In terms of performance, I am however limiting my discussion to typical applications where you are not trying to get a the "some easy expansion" coupled with "assured penetration". Performance along the lines of the partition style jacketed bullets is possible with cast, but the effort is "beyond reasonable" for all but a few. A medium hardness alloy coupled with some amount of meplat does "good enough" for most and should probably be all we need to try for with this "new approach".

    For 35 cal straight wall case applications, I already know that "good as jacketed" performance is not only possible, it is probably not much extra work. My 160s shot fine with full power loads in all three guns I tried (I have a couple more that I should try) and the 357 max load put down 10 out of 10 rams at 200 meters (sad that it took three rounds to hit 10, but 2 rounds were standing) at our 1 IHMSA match for the year. This is with a softish "range pick up" lead that allows for some expansion.

    For medium capacity 30 cal bottle neck (30-30 or less), I have not seen "good as jacketed" performance in terms of just getting full velocity with good accuracy. And this is a "not yet" for any one of my guns (I have been working with 3 contender barrels) where we really want "it just works" for most guns.

    My chineseum mini lathe and my lack of skill as a machinist are probably hampering my 30 cal efforts.
    Last edited by P Flados; 08-30-2018 at 09:21 PM.

  20. #40
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    Willbird - I don't swage - no $ or time to try but it is interesting. When using Lee sizer I can get the 'edge' on the base if the punch is too small - doen't happen with GC (Hornady) boolits though. My guess is no place to excess alloy to go - i.e. no groove above GC. There should be a difference between swaging core (wire) and cast (just perfecting the shape) processes. I do expect a difference in extraction between lube and PC, the lube can make a hydraulic 'lock'. Even cooling contraction of alloy and die won't give enough space for reduced friction. Hard alloys will spring back as well.
    Whatever!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check