Hum 45-70 vs the 450 Bushmaster (modern day)

[Outer Rondacker]

Lets debate something for FUN. Lets take two modern day rifles and compare pros and conns of each. For this chat lets leave out the AR platform. Do they compare or does one outshine the other hands down. Lets start.

450 BM Pro's

1. Shoots .452 projectiles
2. Uses less powder when reloaded
3. Velocity in the 2200fps Energy 2750 ish
4. Drop of 3.4 inches at 200 yards
5. Said to be less felt recoil

Conn's

1. Not many options other then Ruger American Ranch or re-barreling a Savage.
2. It uses pistol size bullets so less options for weights
3. If I purchase another rifle this soon after the one I just got I will get in the dog house

Trusty 45-70 Pro's

1. Bullet weights are higher
2. Comes in Lever guns
3. Brass is all over
4. Works well with cast but then again I think both do
5. You can say you own a 45-70
6. 2100 fps with 2850 ish foot pounds energy wooof

Conn's

1. Heavy bullet weights
2. Not really designed for smokeless
3. Only comes in a single or lever
4. I am having a hard time coming up with conn's

Ok this is for fun and might end up with me buying a barrel or a RAR. I am looking for others outlook on the topic. The list I have posted is just to get us started that is if any of you guys would like to take part in this chat. Let me hear what you have and what you think good or bad. If you had to pick one what one. Lets have some fun.

[Gunslinger1911]

Um, get both ?

[Texas by God]

You can load a 45-70 to mimic the BM but not vice versa.

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[adcoch1]

Build a 458 socom bolt gun and have the best of both worlds! Jk, I like that 45-70 comes in singles and lever guns. Those platforms seem to give you the best uses for that classic thumper. The 450 bushmaster is also a very cool cartrige, and should really shine in a bolt gun. It uses less powder as you mentioned, but if no ar's are in the equation, it can be loaded quite a bit hotter than factory loads. Both is probably the best answer, just get both...

[charlie b]

.450 Marlin if this is for a bolt gun. Or, .458 WIn Mag Then you can claim to be a "real man"

PS why do you need smaller bullets in a big bore rifle?

PPS if you want wimpy loads shoot round ball

[Outer Rondacker]

Um, get both ?

Would only need to get one.

You can load a 45-70 to mimic the BM but not vice versa.

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Good point.

Build a 458 socom bolt gun and have the best of both worlds! Jk, I like that 45-70 comes in singles and lever guns. Those platforms seem to give you the best uses for that classic thumper. The 450 bushmaster is also a very cool cartrige, and should really shine in a bolt gun. It uses less powder as you mentioned, but if no ar's are in the equation, it can be loaded quite a bit hotter than factory loads. Both is probably the best answer, just get both...

I do believe the 458 is less of a round then the 450 BM. Yes I just looked it up. The same bullet is less speed and foot pounds hitting power. Not by much but it is. Straight wall 45s.

.450 Marlin if this is for a bolt gun. Or, .458 WIn Mag Then you can claim to be a "real man"

PS why do you need smaller bullets in a big bore rifle?

PPS if you want wimpy loads shoot round ball

450 Marlin. .458 bullet and the same speed as the BM. Something to consider but not to much.

[Flailguy]

Ruger # 1 loads. Enough said

[Outer Rondacker]

#1 not going to happen. Yes you can load it hotter but that does not make the final say. So I will take it you wanted the #1 load as a Pro for the 45-70. We can do that.

[Smoke4320]

no real discussion .. get both ..
as soon as you get used to the 450 bushmaster you will want the AR as a companion

[Outer Rondacker]

Im in NYS so AR's are kinda out. I mean you can have one just not pistol grip or mag over 10 rounds or muzzle brake or threaded for that matter. No adjustable stock the list goes on. So AR platform is kinda out.

[Texas by God]

I examined a Ruger American 450 Bushmaster the other day. Very neat gun, I wouldn't mind owning one at all. The first thing I would do is get out my trusty hacksaw and bye-bye muzzle break!

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[Outer Rondacker]

Hum I have to look closer at that. I had figured it was a threaded on one. I guess while we are at it we can add price to the game. A Remlin is going to run $850+ the RAR $500. A barrel for a Savage 110 can be found for $175.

If going the Ruger route then the trigger can be lighted up very nicely to 2 - 2 1/2 pounds in a few mins. Still crisp and safe. My other RAR are a dream to shoot as far as the trigger goes.

[hp246]

Depending on where you hunt, another consideration is overall case length. the .450 bushmaster can be used in lower Michigan and Indiana (maybe others). The 45-70 can not unless you cut the case to 1.80 inches or less.

[Outer Rondacker]

Good points. I would not have an issue as my state lets you hunt with any center fire over 22 cal for big game. But for others this is a good point.

So I guess this goes in the Conn's for 45-70.

[Texas by God]

The RAR muzzle has a flared threaded end for a honking brake. I was halfway kidding about the hacksaw.
If you prefer bolt actions the .450 Marlin works good for them.
The cartridge .45 of 1873 will never die and can be giggles or bruises loading wise.
The .450 BM RAR is my choice because I haven't had that round before.
Marlin 1895s in .450 are getting costly; heck so are the 45-70s but I do like them.

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[geezer56]

I have a 450 Ruger American. And a NEF 45-70 Shikari. Plus an Encore in 45-70. The Shikari is the one I grab first. Just saying

[edp2k]

45-70
1. > Heavy bullet weights.
Not restricted to heavies. can do 300 gr up to 500+gr.
also can do collar buttons (180 or 200 gr?) and .457 round balls.

2. > Comes in Lever guns.
there are 45-70s in lever, single shot, bolt action (i.e. Siamese Mauser).

6. > 2100 fps with 2850 ish foot pounds energy wooof.
can do anywhere from 1000 fps up to ???.
most of the buffalo were killed with 45-70 400 or 500 gr. @ 1300 fps
and the bullet still comes out the backside.
any more muzzle velocity and the bullets just comes out the backside going faster.

FYI 400 gr @ 1300 fps is pretty pleasant and will go lengthwise through a deer or bear
or probably moose (if you can sneek one by the DEC and the NY Moose's radio antennas
dont interfere with the bullets flight

450 bush CON.
1. very proprietary brass. no other cartridge's brass can be converted to 450 bush.
45-70 is 150+ years old and still going strong, most every
gun shop or Walmart carries it, can't say that for 450 bush.

450 marlin CON.

1. very proprietary brass.
no other cartridge's brass can be converted to 450 marlin
because of the proprietary wide belt which is different that any other cartridge.
cartridge is disappearing and loaded ammo and brass is getting tougher to find
(and thus more $$$) everyday. 45-70 is 150+ years old and still going strong, most every
gun shop or Walmart carries it, can't say that for 450 marlin.

[Outer Rondacker]

Good points being made. So when shopping for BM we know we are limited to re-barreling a gun or buying a RAR. (Single also) A 45-70 can be in a bolt, single, pistol but we will leave that out or a lever. As for Marlin levers are they an good anymore? When Remlins (marlins made by remington) came out I know they had loads of issues.

[Earlwb]

CVA now sells single shot rifles in .450 Bushmaster too. Henry might be selling them too.

One plus is that some of the larger sporting goods stores now sell the .450BM ammunition.

The big thing on the .450 BM, when it first came out, was that it created a .45-70 like big bore rifle capability in the AR15 platform. We didn't have anything like that at first with the AR's. The magazine size is the limiting factor with heavier bullets that exceed 300 grains in weight. But some folks have loaded up to 500 grain bullets in them though.

Then later the .458 SOCOM came out and it more closely matches the .45-70 performance with the heavier bullets.

[Ramjet-SS]

Ok so I Own the following;

45-70 Encore Stainless rifle.

458 SOCOM AR platform

450 Marlin in an Encore and on in a Winchester 94 TD

450 Bushmaster in Ruger Ranch and one in Ruger Scout.

45-70 with 460 grain WFN Hammer of Thor bullets loaded over 12 grains of Unique is very accurate and a total blast to shoot.

458 SOCOM what's to say? Accurate like MOA accurate at 100 yards. I run everything from 250 grain all the way up to the 460 grain WFN GC. This gun is heavy fun gun to hunt from stand with not so much fun to lug around. Fun factor at the range to impress other folks it ranks high. Not overly practical the brass is expensive reloading not so bad. chasing brass around not so much fun. Reliable guns long as you clean it.

450 Marlin first off both the guns came ported. The Encore is a short handi little powerful carbine that is joy to carry in the field. It is accurate and the porting in that gun takes the recoil. Top end loads in both these guns including the model 94 TD are stout to say the least. In fact the Encore I have to send off to get the scope mounts opened up and added to to keep a scope tight on this gun. Both guns are accurate but the Winchester much prefers Jacketed 300 grain HP. Brass is expensive and not so easy to find but it is available. These would make good moose or even African calibers because the top loads are potent. On both ends. Gun is easy to carry about the same effective range as the entire group here. Winchester is easy to carry as is the little Encore carbine. I think the 450 Marlin is tribute to the inventor of the 458 X 2" American which I chambered a #1 in years ago. The best platform may be in a Browning BLR for dangerous game.

450 Bushmaster both Rugers bolt guns have the Muzzle Brakes yes they are loud but they do there intended job well. The Ruger bolt guns are incredibly accurate with anything I have fed them. Lehigh defense all they way too a Keith Style cast hp. Feeding these guns from the magazine however they prefer the pointer bullets. The LFN cast bullets feed Well are accurate and hit hard with authority. The price point of the scout rifle is high but you cannot go wrong with the American. I actually have a Magpul after market stock ordered for mine. Yes it is worth the extra cost that's how accurate this rifle is. I have a high dollar Trijicon 1-4 30mm mounted on the American and Scout scope mounted on the Scout rifle. The brass is easy to get, reloading is breeze and the versitility of the 450 Bushmaster has me sold. Of all the above these are two rifles I would choose if I was forced to choose. Low end Light loads to full house high pressure rounds with X bullets or Lehigh Defense solids make this a great ,edict range gun for game up to and including some African plains game to moose and certainly elk or deer. Light loads make it a really good for varmints and small rodent reduction.