2.75" load in 3" shell and extra gas seal?

[faustus]

One more question to you experienced reloaders:

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Load#160519-8106 (EXPRESS BUCKSHOT)
HULL: CHEDDITE 12ga 2.75”
PRIMER: CH209
PROPELLANT: (ALLIANT) PROREACH 34.0 gr.
WAD: CLBC (Mica dust wad please.) Two long slits plus 18FW20 wad in base.
SHOT: Lead Buckshot #2 stacked in Rows of 3, 5 rows for a total of 15 pellets. (Approx. 425 grains.)
CRIMP: FOLD
RESULTS: PSI 10000 FPS 1565
----------------------------------------------

I want to load the following recipe in a Cheddite 3" shell and filling up the space with an extra gas seal ... the BPGS seal. Would this increase or lower pressures? Significantly or nothing to worry about?

What is the consensus on the impact on pressure by adding an extra gas seal?

Thanks,
Faustus

[sargenv]

The load is already good, why would you want to waste a 3" hull for this load perfected for the 2 3/4" hull? Is it a case where you don't have any once fired Cheddite 2 3/4" hulls? If so I could probably send you a large flat rate box of them for nothing more than the cost of shipping. I have access to unlimited numbers of these (Actually, they are Kent Target loads, but Kent uses Cheddite Hulls).

BPI had a manual called "Pagoda Loads" some years back. I'd say that pressure will be different.. not sure if higher or lower.. but different enough that it might not work very well. I substituted a primer from one brand to another and wound up with 25 blooper shells.. The primer I chose (Winchester) didn't have enough pop to get the large powder charge started (Load called for Fed 209's).

[2152hq]

Throw a couple pieces of popped popcorn on top of the shot load and then crimp it.
It'll take up the space, compress nicely to give a firm crimp and it weighs nothing so there's no worry about pressure increases.

You can also use stuff like Rice Krispy cereal. Same thing,,,, light weight, compresses and gives a nice crimp. I use this in my 410 loads that don't meet the height requirement.
I simply hold the charged case over a bowl of the stuff and dump a finger full into the case. What drops in there fills the case to the top,,what falls aside falls back into the bowl. No mess and quick.
The case full compresses and crimps firmly.
Popcorn works the same way but you have to handle it a bit differently as it's larger pieces.

The birds like it too.

[Hogtamer]

Faustus, regarding both of these threads.....I do believe that many of these loads are generated by a program that certainly takes into account the products that the vendor is selling. Nothing wrong with that but when I look at those loads I think, has anyone actualy used them? I'm an old buckshot reloader and neither Pro Reach or #2 buck is on my radar. And while I've loaded a lot of cheddite hulls you must have the exact load height to get a good crimp. Very soft plastic. And many of the BPi loads I've tried do NOT! If I was starting from scratch I would use #1 or 00 buck and a powder like 800x, bluedot, etc. Common primers like the Win 209 and Remington hulls. No propriety data or products and lots of published loads. Even the Rem top gun hulls are better than cheddite to me. Just trying to save you some hassle. On page 35 of this link there are a lot of older, relatively inexpensive components to pick and choose from. A couple of the powders are obsolete and there are subs for the Win 12R wads. Yes I have loaded a bunch of the 2nd from the bottom on page 35 and they are better than most. I had a bunch of the old Win wads. Remember it's NOT how much is stuffed in the hull but how many pellets hit the target. Good luck with your efforts. Oh yeah, 2 of the good plastic gas seals spike pressure...
http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/FIR..._reloading.pdf

[bikerbeans]

Ditto on the double gas seals, tried it once with a slug load. Luckily it was a heavy barrel shotgun and I had a range rod with me.

BB

[faustus]

Faustus, regarding both of these threads.....I do believe that many of these loads are generated by a program that certainly takes into account the products that the vendor is selling. Nothing wrong with that but when I look at those loads I think, has anyone actualy used them?
...

Thanks Hogtamer, that was useful ..... thank you.
Hmmmmm .... you are confirming my suspicion that you can't trust those loads 100%.
For example there is another load listed and it lists the CLBC wad with 15 pellets of #1 buckshot and stacking in 3s. But #1 buckshot stacks in 2s in that wad .... I have no clue how one would get 15 pellets in there ...
I can't even get 15 pellets into the LBC50 .... ???

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Load#160422-8004
HULL: CHEDDITE – 12ga 2.75”
PRIMER: CH209
PROPELLANT: Hodgdon LONGSHOT 27.0 GR.
WAD: CLBC (Mica dust on wad, please.) Two long slits in the wad.
SHOT: #1 BUCK 3 x 5 = 15 (536 GR.)
The load is buffered with 10 grains of Original Buffer.
CRIMP: Fold – 6 point
RESULTS: PSI 10000 FPS 1295
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Well, here is what I am trying to come up with. I am trying to test a long range buckshot load with an unslit wad and for a a shotgun with an IC choke. I have chosen the CLBC wad because it has the cushion section .... so the idea is that the wad/buckshot combo would more or less fly as a slug in the first phase ... and this is where the wad's cushion section might add some drag stabilization. And then for the second phase the wad would release the buckshot pellets and only then would the pattern open up. Now, because I am trying to go out to 50 yards or more I am looking at high velocity loads .... and that is also the reason for the Pagoda load with the extra BPGS seal.

(And I have no clue if this will actually work ... so this is an experiment.)

The components that I have are the following:

- CLBC wad
- new primed Fiocchi and Cheditte 3" hulls
- Longshot, Blue Dot and International Clays powders (I also ordered some PROREACH)
- BPGS gas seal
- 20ga and 12ga nitro cards in different thicknesses
- #1 Buckshot (10 pellets +wad + buffer are around 470gr)
- BPI Mix #47 Buffer

So, now I am trying to figure out where to start with the powder load ... and I was thinking of using Longshot powder and my Fiocchi hulls.

But I am still not quite sure how the extra gas seal would affect pressures ... and adding the buffer ... ??

[faustus]

Here is the field load reference data for Fiocchi hulls that I was thinking of using ... from the Advantages Manual ....

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Powder, Primer, Wad, Shot Load, Charge, Pressure

Longshot, Fio. 616, PT1253, 1 1/8 oz, 34 gr, 8700 psi
Longshot, Fio. 616, PT1253, 1 1/8 oz, 35 gr, 9400 psi
Longshot, Fio. 616, PT1253, 1 1/8 oz, 36 gr, 10000 psi

Longshot, Fio. 616, PT1232, 1 ¼ oz, 28 gr, 7500 psi
Longshot, Fio. 616, CS12S, 1 ¼ oz, 32 gr, 8700 psi
Longshot, Fio. 616, PT1253, 1 ¼ oz, 34 gr, 10900 psi
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

[bikerbeans]

If the wad doesn't open when it first leaves the muzzle (highest velocity) why would it open further downrange at a lower velocity?

BB

[jcren]

I believe the idea is the higher mass/momentum of the shot will continue downrange as the lighter wad slows down. However I wonder if a tightly packed and buffered column might not tend to stick in the wad, or at least separate inconsistently.

[faustus]

I believe the idea is the higher mass/momentum of the shot will continue downrange as the lighter wad slows down. However I wonder if a tightly packed and buffered column might not tend to stick in the wad, or at least separate inconsistently.

Jcren, yes you are right .... the idea is that buckshot has the momentum to drive forward, and the lighter wad wants to slow down.

Flight Control wads are based on the same principle. If I shoot a factory load with a flight control wad at 10 yards .... it will produce one clean hole ... but at 20 yards it had time to release the shot.

I would like to take this further ... and where the wad/buckshot load sticks together till 20 yards ... or 30 yards ... or even further ... and then releases the shot.

However, there is one issue ... if the wad starts tumbling in the air .... it will not be able to release the buckshot cleanly.

This is an experiment .... we will see what happens ...

[Hogtamer]

In my experience the IC choke will not give you good killing patterns at 50 yds. I have gotten good 50 yd loads but out of full choke.

[bikerbeans]

My bad, i read slit wad and you wrote unslit.

BB

[faustus]

In my experience the IC choke will not give you good killing patterns at 50 yds. I have gotten good 50 yd loads but out of full choke.

Hogtamer, I hear you ... and that is my understanding as well for "conventional" buckshot loads without a wad or with a wad that will open right after it leaves the muzzle. For those loads you need a good tight choke ...

However, what I am envisioning is a sort of a slug ... that will travel some distance ... and then disintegrates and becomes buckshot in flight.

Imagine a slug that would fly pretty straight till about 40 yards ... and then at around 40 yards it would disintegrate into 10 or 15 identical parts .... i.e. buckshot. What would the pattern be at 50 yards .... a fist .... a pie plate?

And you could shoot that load from an Improved Cylinder ...

When a deer is shot with this load at 20 or 30 yards ... the projectile is basically a slug ... but past a certain distance and where the projectile disintegrates ... it would become buckshot ...

This is just an idea right now .... a concept ... a hunch ... and I need to do some testing ...

I have looked at a couple of unslit wads ... and the CLBC seems to be a good candidate ... I am looking for a sturdy, solid unslit wad that has a cushion section. Because what I need is a weight forward design with drag stabilization. Otherwise the wad/projectile will just tumble in flight and will not be able to release the buckshot cleanly.

Basically, this is my first experiment .... we will see ....