Final Exploding Taurus Judge Thread With Probable Solution

[HangFireW8]

How much would seating 0.035 inch deeper in a 45 Colt case actually raise pressure , according to Quickload? I am thinking the Colt is pretty roomy, compared to something like a 9mm Luger where deep seating can cause a pressure spike. Anybody have Quickload and care to run the numbers?

With the Lee 452-252-SWC and 8.8gr Unique, going from 1.580" COAL and 17044PSI to 1.545" COAL yields 18159PSI.

[daniel lawecki]

I'm still leaning to a double charge or wrong powder.

[BeeMan]

Steel let go and brass did not even show normal signs of sealing in the chamber. Pressure, even over pressure, as applied to a normally dimensioned firearm in a typical manner is not the issue here.

[35remington]

What bothers me is that you have all the evidence of stratospheric pressure present based on the appearance of the blown up gun. By all appearances the pressure wasn’t a little too high for the gun.....it was WAY too high. Which is why I am questioning a metallurgical problem. Ruptures when the round is anywhere near standard pressure due to a metallurgical defect do not look like yours. Yours is a high pressure blowup. Really high pressure.

Pressures that are a little too high do not do to a gun what I see in your photos. Even your top strap is blown completely off, which means that cylinder blew a whole bunch. The rupture sheared off not one but multiple cylinder walls and blew the top strap clean off. A pressure event anywhere near standard pressure or even somewhat higher would not have done that.

Are all the cases accounted for? Is it possible the case you found was from one of the adjacent fired cylinders and the case that blew was lost in orbit?

That would be less contradictory. Your case appearance from what you say was the round in the blown up chamber makes no sense. What I said in the last paragraph does.

Your blown up gun and its extreme appearance says high pressure. That is the most important clue you have. Whatever happened was a huge event and not anywhere near standard pressure. Not even close.

[35remington]

I will throw in with double charge or wrong powder as well.

[dubber123]

What bothers me is that you have all the evidence of stratospheric pressure present based on the appearance of the blown up gun. By all appearances the pressure wasn’t a little too high for the gun.....it was WAY too high. Which is why I am questioning a metallurgical problem. Ruptures when the round is anywhere near standard pressure due to a metallurgical defect do not look like yours. Yours is a high pressure blowup. Really high pressure.

Pressures that are a little too high do not do to a gun what I see in your photos. Even your top strap is blown completely off, which means that cylinder blew a whole bunch.

Are all the cases accounted for? Is it possible the case you found was from one of the adjacent fired cylinders and the case that blew was lost in orbit?

That would be less contradictory. Your case appearance from what you say was the round in the blown up chamber makes no sense. What I said in the last paragraph does.

Your blown up gun and its extreme appearance says high pressure. That is the most important clue you have. Whatever happened was a huge event and not anywhere near standard pressure. Not even close.

I do agree here, my assessment is based entirely on that piece of brass. If it is indeed the one that was the fourth fired and the one that destroyed the gun that is. It actually looks more like one seen ADJACENT to a high pressure blow up, those tend to get beat up.

Does anyone know what a double charge should produce for pressure? If Jon is sure that is the case though, it sure doesn't look like any I have seen before.

Jon, you said this was from a new lot of Starline brass. Is there any way you can count it and see if a piece is missing? That would certainly change things.

[glockfan]

this story reminds me of a friend whose brand new savage smokeless powder rifle blew up in his hands on its second shot ; he lost a pinky in the process .

after analysis of the barrel material
,he claimed it was a rifle material dfect, and won its case against savage who paid 25k's and a rifle of his choice( he picked a 110BA)....

after further analysis , it appears that the barrel was displaying a too high level of manganese.....this metal is used-mixed with the steel to help the knifes cutting the riflings....he was convinced 100% it wasn't a double charge because he's a meticulous reloader ,and like he said, you don't want to reload this rifle while talking with friends around.

[starmac]

What bothers me is that you have all the evidence of stratospheric pressure present based on the appearance of the blown up gun. By all appearances the pressure wasn’t a little too high for the gun.....it was WAY too high. Which is why I am questioning a metallurgical problem. Ruptures when the round is anywhere near standard pressure due to a metallurgical defect do not look like yours. Yours is a high pressure blowup. Really high pressure.

Pressures that are a little too high do not do to a gun what I see in your photos. Even your top strap is blown completely off, which means that cylinder blew a whole bunch. The rupture sheared off not one but multiple cylinder walls and blew the top strap clean off. A pressure event anywhere near standard pressure or even somewhat higher would not have done that.

Are all the cases accounted for? Is it possible the case you found was from one of the adjacent fired cylinders and the case that blew was lost in orbit?

That would be less contradictory. Your case appearance from what you say was the round in the blown up chamber makes no sense. What I said in the last paragraph does.

Your blown up gun and its extreme appearance says high pressure. That is the most important clue you have. Whatever happened was a huge event and not anywhere near standard pressure. Not even close.

Couple that with the fact that the frame has an imprint of the headstamp, does lead one to believe that it was in fact very high pressure, and hard to believe that the headstamp would be imprinted with no high pressure signs on the brass.

[tomme boy]

45 colt brass can handle some extreme PSI. Much over 454 Casual. BUT, this is a gun failure. Taurus has a 70% return rate at a local dealer. He hates to sell them but people demand them. Even when he tells them they are junk. I was one. NEVER again.

I had a 357 with a 4'' barrel when I was 21. It was my first centerfire pistol. Could never get it to shoot very well. Sold it to a friend. He told me if I ever wanted it back I knew where it was. Come 15 years later I ran into him. He says hey I still have that pistol, you want it? Even gave it back to me for the same price. and the same box of bullets I game him.

Figured out why it would not shoot. Not rifling on the left side of the barrel! On the right side it was extremely deep and the barrel was not round at all. Called taurus and they said to send it in. Well they broke the frame getting the barrel off. And then told me OH WELL! We can give you a 20% discount on a new gun. Screw that.

[jonp]

The bullet(s) did not come out of the case and tie up the gun. The only other way they could have gone was in. All bullets are uniform but the other explanation is I could have seated one just that much deeper as a variance on seating depth which would have been enough to cause the explosion. Just as probably.
I'm discounting the double charge theory for the reasons above. Hand weigh, inspection under a light, moving each brass one at a time from the seating tray to the shell holder, placing each boolit into the casing. Just too many steps to miss one that was full almost to the brim. A double charge of Red Dot or Bullseye sure but not Unique

[EDG]

You double charged one round. That is all it takes.
You are not infallible.

Some rinky dinky problem like seating depth did not blow the top strap off of the frame. You had a gross over pressure event.

[Thundarstick]

(You double charged one round. That is all it takes.
You are not infallible.

Some rinky dinky problem like seating depth did not blow the top strap off of the frame. You had a gross over pressure event.)


This has been my thoughts from the get go. It only takes ONE! If not, you just got a bad gun. I've seen a super Red Hawk blown up the same way, a 44 mag, probably a double charge!

[6bg6ga]

If you double charged and you have been inspecting unless you are blind you would have caught it. Seating .035 deeper isn't going to blow it up. I chauk it up to the fact the Judge is a *** and that in itself is enough. I'm going with a metal problem based on my experiences of seeing Judges malfunction.

[dverna]

Getting the metal analyzed is the only way to put this to bed. White Labs may do that kind of work if you do not trust Taurus. But Taurus should do it at no charge.

[35remington]

What are the odds you had a metal problem through three sets of cylinder walls? You did not defect one chamber......you blew away three sets of cylinder walls and sent a top strap into orbit.

High pressure blowups look exactly like yours.

Exactly.

This did not happen at low pressure. The gun destruction is just too vast. Lower energy from a lower pressure event does not have the ability to cause the damage shown.

[Lloyd Smale]

I'm with the "NOPE" and rick. Seating your bullet a bit deap with that charge should not have blown up a gun that's proofed to double factory pressures. As to unique being spikey. Ive used unique for about 50 years now and never found it to be a bit peaky. Either a gun problem squibbed bullet in the barrel or the most likely answer, a double charge and a double charge in a basicialy weak design plain and simple. As to the appearance of the metal ill say this. Yes it looks almost like to much damage to be justified by a metal failure alone but I worked as a mill wright for 5 years and saw metal failure that didn't coincide with the level of the incident that caused it many times. Ive even seen steal incorrectly heat treated that about shattered like glass.

It does seem that there was very little margin for error on your revolver for it to have come apart like that because of that much bullet setback. I echo everyone else that I am glad nobody hurt.

[Wayne Smith]

As a point of reference - I once blew up my Colt M&P 41 Colt - and old gun. Cylinder remained whole, top strap remained, blew off the forcing cone and bulged the side plate. I had set my scale wrong, I had 15gr Bullseye in that case rather then the 5gr. that I thought I had. A double overload of Bullseye in a smaller case - and did less damage than your Judge.

To me that says the design and construction of the gun is the fundamental problem.

[jonp]

Ladies and Gents. What i am trying to do here is a form of a peer review of an experiment and conclusions. I am taking all comments and suggestions, researching and/or testing them then putting aside the unlikely or disproved ones, keeping the possible explanations and seperating those into speculation and something i can look at. The theory is then posted for review so holes can be poked into it. Since i can not test the firearm or know if it was faulty beyond examining it ie. Metal failure, i am assuming it was "put together" correctly and am concentrating on the ammunition which seems reasonable.
Feel free to shoot down any theory i come up with but explain why. A one word answer does not add anything. If i end up discounting the ammo as a cause then it was an unknown failure of the gun. If it is the ammo then what happened? The only thing i can be sure of at this point is a malfunction of the caliper resulting in all rounds being too short. What would this lead to and what results in firing it?
More in depth answer when i get home tonight. If i did not want to hear what the members thought i would not have posted in the first place. This sight is here to pick the brains of people who have "been there, done that"
The secondary reason for this thread is a reminder to all that no matter how much experience you have, you can go wrong. Equipment, firearm or reloading method. Be methodical, follow the books and be safe.
Thank you for your help in this.
Jonp

[35remington]

We also must acknowledge too much pressure disassembled the gun.

[jonp]

I'm still leaning to a double charge or wrong powder.

Wrong powder has been discarded through examining. Double charge has not but is unlikely. I will explain later why i dont think it was that or why the results lean away from that