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Thread: Final Exploding Taurus Judge Thread With Probable Solution

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by bosterr View Post
    Since this thread may have run it's course, I'll ask this question. My wife inherited from her Dad a stainless Judge. I don't know if he ever fired it and we haven't either. In his gun cabinet there was also a box of 25 cartridges. The box reads "Winchester Bonded PDXI" 225 gr. JHP Bonded Personal Defense Protection. But only 15 are the JHP and the 10 others are lead round nose and look like factory loaded as well. I got a rough chamber wall thickness measurement with a dial caliper. The breech end measured around .055 and the front end measured around .070. After jonp's problem, I'm now leary of shooting these rounds through it. Perhaps the JHP could be on the hot side? Perhaps I should try to persuade her to trade it off?
    Factory ammunition will be safe. But you need to verify it is factory and not reloaded.
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  2. #82
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    Great Job! Pretty darn comprehensive analysis here. It helps me (a noob) to see how complex variables can add up to disaster. Makes me consider being more careful and thorough in my own experiments.
    AKA hans.pcguy

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by square butte View Post
    Jon - Should you decide to modify your reloading procedures ( other than the just being extra careful stated above ) - I and others may benefit benefit from what you come up with. I have had that same uneasy feeling when using a loading block that dubber123 describes.
    Get an auto indexing progressive press. You only touch the brass once and it advances the brass from station to station automatically each time you pull the handle. It's still possible to screw up the process, but once everything is setup the process is so straight forward you could teach a 5 year old to do it.

  4. #84
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    jonp,

    Thank you for your honesty and forthrightness, I was happy to help. And, since I think I failed to say it, I'm glad you're OK.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBinMN View Post
    jonp,
    One thing I got out of your last post with the folks helping you in the background thru PM & email, is sad to me...
    JB, I wouldn't be too upset. Jonp pinged me with some QL pressure requests, which would have been an extra pair of information-free posts in the threads. Everything as a result of that conversation went into the thread.

    Another member and I discussed some possibilities and ideas that just can't be proven, and thus would have lead nowhere. Looking over the threads I believe all these ideas were actually mentioned, if not driven to ground. If I thought we had something definite, or even probable it would have gone in the thread.
    I give loading advice based on my actual results in factory rifles with standard chambers, twist rates and basic accurizing.
    My goals for using cast boolits are lots of good, cheap, and reasonably accurate shooting, while avoiding overly tedious loading processes.
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  5. #85
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    Wow I am surprised at how many people do not seem to have read your explanation. And even more surprised at how folks are coming at you with the same 'ol same 'ol...you did it, your fault accusations. Hang in there, I believe your explanation is not only plausible but very carefully thought out and well explained. It makes perfect sense that the mystery of no cases ruptured is involved with the crack in the cylinder after the third or forth shots. Thus weakening the cylinder to allow it to blow (and blow the back strap) with a relatively normal load.
    AKA hans.pcguy

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traffer View Post
    Wow I am surprised at how many people do not seem to have read your explanation. And even more surprised at how folks are coming at you with the same 'ol same 'ol...you did it, your fault accusations. Hang in there, I believe your explanation is not only plausible but very carefully thought out and well explained. It makes perfect sense that the mystery of no cases ruptured is involved with the crack in the cylinder after the third or forth shots. Thus weakening the cylinder to allow it to blow (and blow the back strap) with a relatively normal load.

    You are aware he found the blown case aren't you?

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by dubber123 View Post
    Thanks Jon, I appreciate your honesty. The blown up piece of brass makes a lot more sense than the one with the crease!!

    It is contrary to how many seasoned loaders do it, but I always charge a case and immediately seat a boolit. I'm not saying this is the best way, but I do it that way because the few times I did the loading block method, I could just see myself making a mistake and doubling one. I just had an uneasy feeling, and never trusted myself to use that method. 30+ years later, I still don't

    I'm glad you got it figured out, and you never got hurt in the process. Now go buy another gun and get back to shooting.


    Loading for accuracy I do a tray of 50 at a time. I have a dowel marked with the powder charge and I check each case by dropping it in to make sure it is at the line(+- but close, you will compact it a little sometimes). Only then do I seat and crimp the boolit.

    Running the press in turret mode I do light check each case.

    Hmmm... I wonder... if I can design a sensitive enough laser measuring tool to read powder levels but not cost a mint...

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by dubber123 View Post
    You are aware he found the blown case aren't you?

    Well there I go again, not taking all facts into account. Indeed I had not read all of the posts and missed the vital post about discovering the blown brass and the following statements. I apologize to the entire forum for doing the same thing as I accused many folks here of doing (jumping to conclusions about people). Oh what a fool I am.
    AKA hans.pcguy

  9. #89
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    I don't know how many rounds ive loaded on 550s in my life but its defineately in the hundreds of thousands. I damaged exactly one gun in my life because of to hot of a load and that was a small framed ruger that I got some large frame ruger loads mixed up with. My take on it is anyone who cannot safely run a 550 sure should be loading on ANY auto indexing progressive press either. Same guy is going to dump a double charge in his loading blow with this powder dump because hes the guy that doesn't pay attention. Yup mistakes are made. Everyone can screw up but its sure not the machine that causes it its the operator. I might agree that a sloppy idiot loading on a 550 might tend to screw up more then a perfectly running progressive press. But not many progressive presses run perfectly and none I know run perfectly with an idiot at the controls. At least not for long.
    Quote Originally Posted by reddog81 View Post
    Get an auto indexing progressive press. You only touch the brass once and it advances the brass from station to station automatically each time you pull the handle. It's still possible to screw up the process, but once everything is setup the process is so straight forward you could teach a 5 year old to do it.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  10. #90
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    One of the best ways to stay out of trouble is to use a powder that completely fills the case with the load that you want to use.
    If it is impossible to over charge then it is tough to blow up the gun.
    EDG

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traffer View Post
    Wow I am surprised at how many people do not seem to have read your explanation. And even more surprised at how folks are coming at you with the same 'ol same 'ol...you did it, your fault accusations. Hang in there, I believe your explanation is not only plausible but very carefully thought out and well explained. It makes perfect sense that the mystery of no cases ruptured is involved with the crack in the cylinder after the third or forth shots. Thus weakening the cylinder to allow it to blow (and blow the back strap) with a relatively normal load.
    This is a possibility of what happened but is explained in a previous post as to why I am going with the double charge and not this one. No worries.

    Additional Steps To Avoid Double Charge

    The question was asked as to how I am going to change my reloading technique to avoid a double charge in the future. I am going to add a step or two

    After inspecting and sizing the brass I prime with an RCBS hand primer. At this point I am going to place each primed case into the loading block casehead up. After priming 50 I'll run my finger over the primers checking for seating depth.

    After weighing the charge or in the case of target loads throwing a charge with my Lyman 55, I will place the round into a 2cd tray case mouth up. By going from case mouth down with empties to case mouth up for loaded i can lesson the chance of double charging. After the 50 rounds have powder in them I will run a light over them for a final visual check before seating a bullet.

    After seating a bullet I will check for length with a dial caliper. Satisfied with the depth I will lay each completed round on the bench and when done 2 or 3, I will inspect for depth and then crimp in a second press as a seperate step. I will then shoot over a chronograph looking for velocity spikes, erratic changes or a different reading than expected. If you remember in the thread, when I ran the completed rounds over the chrony the velocities were 150-200fps over what was expected. This led me inspect the rounds and at a suggestion check the equipment where I found the malfunctioning digital caliper which allowed all of the rounds to be seated deeper than wanted. When satisfied I will load the rest, lay them on the bench and roll them back and forth looking for anything appearing off. Measure a few at random for length, crimp and I am done.

    These additional steps should reduce the chance of a double charge as far as humanly possible.
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  12. #92
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    I missed the original post. But I have a thought, what if this particular piece of brass was too long and when chambering in that cylinder, the brass was into the step requiring much greater pressure to release the bullet therefore raising the pressure drastically? Do you remember if any of those rounds had to be forced into the chamber?

    My original thought is a double charge also.

    Rosewood
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  13. #93
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    jonp,

    A suggestion that will certainly almost remove the possibility of an over charge is simply to have the seating die in the press as you charge with powder, then since you not only threw the charge in, you immediately seat the bullet ( and crimp, or as I do, crimp in the next step). If you know you have put the correct amount of powder in the round and then seal it off, you do not have the chance of overloading unless you over loaded to start with, or, as has happened to me, you drop or spill powder while placing a charged case without seated bullet/boolit in the block. The only other way would be if you had a "bridged" powder charge in your measure, that only allowed for a partial to fill one case& then the next round being charged gets its "set" charge & the additional " bridged" powder as well, making a reduced charge in one & an over charge in another.

    Personally, I do this either when I am weighing each charge after throwing, or just trusting the measure without weighing each charged amount. I seat the boolit & then depending on which press I am using, ( single stage or turret) I either place the seated round in a block until I have all of the boolits seated & in the block to go to crimp ( with single stage) & there is no way I can get an undercharged or bridged/spilled over charge, since I have sealed off the case. Then I change to the crimp die in the single stage & then complete the loading by crimping & placing into the container I am using to store the completed rounds. If I am crimping at the same time as seating, then I have seated & sealed off the correct powder & crimped so that round can be placed in the container being used for completed rounds.

    If I am using the turret, I put in the charge, immediately seat the boolit, then turn the turret to the crimp die & crimp, then remove the completed round & place into the storage container. I see no way of over or under charging since I am observing the powder as I go from powder measure to seating & thus almost completely reduce the chance for undercharge or over charge.

    Even if I get interrupted during the process of reloading, I complete a round & stop knowing that any seated boolit is sealed with the correct amount of powder & that I can resume reloading after the interruption & have a clear head & know that up to where I restart I have safe rounds.

    I hope I said that well enough & perhaps it might help ya out. I use that method regardless of whether I am weighing each round as I go, or just checking every 10 or so.

    Hope that helped anyway.

    G'Luck


    P.S. - I am going on little sleep as I type this, so if I am a bit long winded & rambling, I blame that , as well as if I was not concise in how I typed this up. Just forget it if it is confusing. LOL As I said, I am just trying to help yo do something that will pretty much eliminate any over/under charge situation in the future, if you are diligent in your observation of the powder as ya go & then seal off the charge immediately.

    Last edited by JBinMN; 03-30-2018 at 08:58 AM.
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  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
    I missed the original post. But I have a thought, what if this particular piece of brass was too long and when chambering in that cylinder, the brass was into the step requiring much greater pressure to release the bullet therefore raising the pressure drastically? Do you remember if any of those rounds had to be forced into the chamber?

    My original thought is a double charge also.

    Rosewood
    The firearm in question also fires 410 shot shells, there is an extremely long chamber in front of a 45 Colt case, no chance of even the longest of 45 Colt brass making it to a cylinder throat.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by dubber123 View Post
    The firearm in question also fires 410 shot shells, there is an extremely long chamber in front of a 45 Colt case, no chance of even the longest of 45 Colt brass making it to a cylinder throat.
    Just for giggles, I tried to put a 454 case in my judge (no I wasn't gonna shoot it, just checking to see if it could be done by mistake). It will not chamber, there is some sort of stop or taper that prevents the 454 from chambering.

    Rosewood
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  16. #96
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    I made this comment back at post #50 that was not explored.

    "Following these three threads, one thing I've missed being mentioned is the possibility of a detonation, where a partially blocked flash hole allows the bullet to be blown forward onto the cylinder/ throat, then the dispersed powder being ignited in a detonation."

    There is a thread going on in the Single Shot Guns sub forum http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...me-Rifles-Boys
    Where the idea I was speaking of is being discussed. Perhaps not a detonation, but a barrel obstruction when the bullet is blown up to, or into, that long chamber/ throat before the main charge ignites leading to a huge pressure spike before the bullet can start moving again, thus causing a catastrophic failure. Was this dismissed out of hand, or is it just unprovable?

  17. #97
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    I hate to throw salt on the wound but the Judge is a very poor example of a firearm. Its more of a novelty than anything else. Buy something decent and move on.

  18. #98
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    yup two truths here. the judge is not a premium gun and if you are one that will double charge with a manual index press you shouldn't be loading period!
    Quote Originally Posted by 6bg6ga View Post
    I hate to throw salt on the wound but the Judge is a very poor example of a firearm. Its more of a novelty than anything else. Buy something decent and move on.
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  19. #99
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    ^^^^
    I agree that the Judge is not a Ruger Super Redhawk strength wise, but disagree with the balance as it relates to these threads. Everyone makes mistakes. I do not believe the OP is to quit reloading based on your opinion. Seems like you are pronouncing judgement unnecessarily is this matter.
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  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmort View Post
    ^^^^
    I agree that the Judge is not a Ruger Super Redhawk strength wise, but disagree with the balance as it relates to these threads. Everyone makes mistakes. I do not believe the OP is to quit reloading based on your opinion. Seems like you are pronouncing judgement unnecessarily is this matter.
    I'm going to jump in with Lloyd on this one. If you can't keep your head in the game you run the chance that your going to blow your head off and as a result you shouldn't be reloading. If you insist on reloading then you need to go back to square number 1 and start all over again under supervision. The OP was lucky this time and I'm a firm believer that luck doesn't come around the second time.

    Now, jmort maybe the reloading incident hit home for you because you might have had a similar incident? Logic would dictate that if you can't reload properly its time to get out. The other option would be to go back to a single stage until such time as you could refrain from making major mistakes that very well could end your life.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check