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Thread: Paper that DOESN'T work

  1. #21
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    The bore looks good. Very difficult to get a good shot of the bore though.

    I developed a load for a rifle with a well worn bore, starting from low velocity and working up until the patch was coming off the boolit. After a while the gun began to shoot badly so I fired a shot into the 'test tube' and found the patch was no longer disintegrating enough to come off properly. The bore had polished up. So I upped the powder charge.

    Perhaps try a series of loads at different velocities and range test them to see what happens. You might find that at some point leading begins. Also accuracy at different levels would be useful. One of my rifles was leading near the muzzle. I've done some bore polishing and now need to range test.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  2. #22
    Boolit Man
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    Thanks. I'm gearing up for another round, and I think I'll try that advice. I'll keep everyone posted! Oh, how did you polish the last couple inches of your bore? As far as I can tell, thats where my gun is leading as well.

  3. #23
    Boolit Man
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    Success!!!!!!!

    Made another round of five Boolits today. I had found that the nose section of the Boolit was actually a tiny bit bigger than bore diameter. I've heard that this is ok, however I've had problems with the 30-30 when this happens, so I choked them down a bit with my "sizer". Pretty much just drilled a hole in some mild steel (19/64, or about .296") and then opened it up with some emery cloth in a split dowel/drill to about .3005 or .301" and pounded the bullets through with a hammer. Then patched with #20 copy paper as previously, however I stayed well back of the ogive-the last time I patched the ogive and the Boolit was seated pretty deep by the action bc of the increased size. Anyways, patched them to .3135-.314. Shot them actually saw confetti! Haven't seen that before! Checked the bore after every shot and it stayed clean. Actually looks pretty shiny. Thanks so much for all your guys' help! Really appreciated it!
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  4. #24
    Boolit Man
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    Also, used 30 gr of 3031 instead of 10gr of Red dot.

  5. #25
    Boolit Man
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    Ok, made up a batch of 40 rounds. 15 exactly as made previously (PP going up halfway from "lube grooves" to ogive, and sized to about .3005). 10 sized with the PP only going up to the "lube grooves". 5 unsized bullets with the PP just covering the "lube grooves", 5 unsized with the PP going up halfway from the "lube grooves" to the ogive. 5 with the lee 309-170 bullet sized to .3005. The results were interesting-I couldn't group any of the sized bullets-I was lucky to have any hit paper at 25 yds (I think 3 made it). the unsized bullets (about .3025) shot better (still not amazing, but 3" or so). The sized bullets with the PP only covering the grooves leaded the barrel slightly (either they got a bit wet, or there just wasn't enough patch I think?) Fortunately, they were the last ones I shot. I think the ones with the PP going up halfway to the ogive edged out the ones with the patch only covering the grooves. I think thats unfortunate, as they seat much deeper in the case bc of the longer patch, and these are already long bullets. I'm not sure how much powder I'm going to be able to put in there before pressure is a problem. I used 30gr of IMR 3031 for all loads.

  6. #26
    Boolit Man
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    Am interested in why the unsized bullets worked today, but not previously. Maybe it was the use of a slower burning powder that made the difference, or maybe it was using a shorter patch (if that makes any sense)

  7. #27
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thirtythirty View Post
    .... how did you polish the last couple inches of your bore? As far as I can tell, that's where my gun is leading as well.
    Sorry to take so long to reply to your question. I had to go down and do it again to remember what I did.

    Well, I did several things, the first was to fire a special fire-lapping bullet down the bore. That's the one that took out all the rust and scale, even from the deep pits. I'm scared of that that trick because of the stuck bullet in the throat once, under pressure! Ok, the next thing I did was to chamber a lead or PP round (bolt open) then smear a blob of grinding paste into the muzzle and push a small tuft of cotton wool down the bore, onto the boolit nose, so as to leave a layer of the paste all the way down the bore and fire it.

    The other was the grinding paste in the meck supported by wheat bran under a card wad then a shorter boolit on top, the idea being that the wheat bran forms a fibrous wad under the grinding paste when fired. The last trick I did and which is what I did again yesterday was to roll a patch of scotch brite abrasive pad on a jag and polish the bore with it.

    Yesterday I found I could cut the pad into discs, hold the disc over the chamber mouth and push a naked cleaning rod into the centre of that so that the disc folds back over the rod and fits the bore tightly and push it through. I'd turn the used disc the other way round and repeat then use a new disc.

    I also used steel wool on a cleaning brush, winding it tightly and smearing it with grinding paste. That's messy, leaving grinding paste in the action - you don't want that. Pushing a ball of cotton wool down the chamber and out the bore gets rid of grit in the chamber and bore.

    Another trick I used is a fat two diameter smooth side boolit, knurled and smeared with AutoSol metal polish. This gets the base shank smeared then seated (a slightly loose fit in the unsized neck) then the long exposed portion of the boolit gets a thick smearing of the polish. Chamber and fire. I sometimes pushed a small cotton wool ball thick with the stuff down the bore first. The metal polish paste 'lubes' the boolit. With this stuff it doesn't matter if it gets into the chamber (in fact, I smear the case with it). All that happens is the fired case comes out polished! Hopefully, the chamber gets a bit of polishing too.

    The abrasive pad trick is the one I prefer, polishing as well as removing rust and crud and presumably rounding sharp edges on rust pits. I could feel the resistance lessening as it got shinier. Most of my damaged bores are rough toward the muzzle where leading occurs.

    I took photos but for some reason Postimage can't be reached so I'm not able to post those pics.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 04-14-2018 at 04:00 PM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  8. #28
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thirtythirty View Post
    Am interested in why the unsized bullets worked today, but not previously. Maybe it was the use of a slower burning powder that made the difference, or maybe it was using a shorter patch (if that makes any sense)
    Probably both. Also, the bore might be polishing up a little.

    Does that 3031 leave the bore dirty, as in sooty? I use clays for subsonic load testing and it is so sooty. It might be lubing the bore.

    There is a trick you might try and that is to put a wad of lube under the boolit, the idea being to lube the bore. It works for jacketed bullets. I get zero copper fouling.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 04-14-2018 at 03:59 PM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  9. #29
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Photos of the abrasive pads.




    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  10. #30
    Boolit Man
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    Yeah, I think the 3031 is a bit sooty. At least, there was a big black streak on the snow after I finished shooting a couple days ago. Interesting method with the abrasive pads. I've been using brass wool to remove any leading that accumulates in the barrel, so I wonder if that is accomplishing the same thing?

  11. #31
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    The brass wool would not polish the steel. My bores are mostly rust roughened, hense my attempt to polish them up. I plan on loading up and taking an interesting gun, a martini 303 carbine on a MkI action with a lightweight sporter stock.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  12. #32
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I've now found that oiling the abrasive pad patches works better. I used ATF which has a detergent in it, for better or worse.

    I gave my pig gun the treatment as this was leading with every shot, even low pressure loads. Now it doesn't. The bore even has a shine to it, in a rough sort of way.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  13. #33
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    I've now found that oiling the abrasive pad patches works better. I used ATF which has a detergent in it, for better or worse.

    I gave my pig gun the treatment as this was leading with every shot, even low pressure loads. Now it doesn't. The bore even has a shine to it, in a rough sort of way.
    Huh, interesting. I guess there is just a threshold you need to get past then.

    Hey, I am preparing to make another batch of cartridges. The last go round showed that bullets that had a larger/longer patch (and therefore were seated deeper by the action) functioned better than ones which had less patching. These bullets are pretty long, and as far as I can tell the base is about equal to the base of the case shoulder. I am using pretty minimal powder loads right now, however am I right in saying this could be a pressure problem if I increase powder charges?

  14. #34
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I did some developments for my ancient carbine which was a Martini 303 carbine barrel on an 1896 Lee Enfield action. Now this barrel is worn like the rifling is rounded and the bore quite large and remember that in those days the bores were cut to tight tolerances. Anyway, I worked up a load by firing into my 'test tube' as I call it, until the patch was coming off at the muzzle. I then took that load out and tested it at 100 meters and I got a pretty decent grouping. With open sights it was something like 1.5 MOA. After a while, accuracy seemed to drop off and I found that the bore had smoothed up and the patch was no longer coming off properly so I increased the powder charge.

    I would say that pressure and velocity are closely linked in that both translate into stress between the boolit and bore.

    That pig gun I mentioned, I was shooting a 194 gr boolit over 44 grs of H4350 to produce 2040 fps from a 14.6 inch barrel! Pressure was right up there and yet no leading (accuracy not so great though). But once the bore got rough again with fresh corrosion, the patch would fail even with light loads. Same with the carbine even though it was only a light rust in the bore. I wonder about certain primers being corrosive?
    Last edited by 303Guy; 04-22-2018 at 05:01 AM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  15. #35
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    I did some developments for my ancient carbine which was a Martini 303 carbine barrel on an 1896 Lee Enfield action. Now this barrel is worn like the rifling is rounded and the bore quite large and remember that in those days the bores were cut to tight tolerances. Anyway, I worked up a load by firing into my 'test tube' as I call it, until the patch was coming off at the muzzle. I then took that load out and tested it at 100 meters and I got a pretty decent grouping. With open sights it was something like 1.5 MOA. After a while, accuracy seemed to drop off and I found that the bore had smoothed up and the patch was no longer coming off properly so I increased the powder charge.

    I would say that pressure and velocity are closely linked in that both translate into stress between the boolit and bore.

    That pig gun I mentioned, I was shooting a 194 gr boolit over 44 grs of H4350 to produce 2040 fps from a 14.6 inch barrel! Pressure was right up there and yet no leading (accuracy not so great though). But once the bore got rough again with fresh corrosion, the patch would fail even with light loads. Same with the carbine even though it was only a light rust in the bore. I wonder about certain primers being corrosive?
    Thats interesting-you were obviously using modern primers, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the past I think it was the mercuric primers that were corrosive, because they formed some kind of salt in the barrel. The modern lead styphnate primers (hopefully?) shouldn't do that. But maybe there are different kinds of lead styphnate? Other ingredients? Was the barrel oiled during storage?

    I'm just curious, how deep do you seat your bullets? What is a good rule of thumb (i.e, for seating something too far?).

  16. #36
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    The barrels were oiled, yes and modern primers. I've only noticed this rusting with a certain primer. I'm not sure so I don't want to mention brands. One barrel had been oiled and stored for a few years then one shot fired, bore cleaned and oiled the same old way. A few weeks later the bore was rusty! I didn't use bore solvent, just cleaned the bore out with ATF. I checked other bores cleaned a few years ago the same way and they are still fine.

    I seat my boolits to no deeper than the internal shoulder junction. I have seated deeper and noticed signs of boolit base riveting. That was with a soft alloy though and with a filler that would compact into a wad so there wouldn't have been equalizing pressure on the side of the exposed boolit. I don't use that filler anymore although it did give good results.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  17. #37
    Boolit Man
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    ok, sorry for the stupid question, but is the internal shoulder the upper part of the shoulder where it transitions into the neck?

  18. #38
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    The shoulder/neck junction. It's a little further back on the inside but I suppose that's really splitting hairs.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    303 Guy; The primers you are referring to are the old
    "Chlorate" primers found in a lot of surplus ammo (WW2 and earlier for US made, I don't know about British made ammo). They were made with mercuric chloride, and the resulting salts deposited in the barrel are not removed by oil or mineral solvents. The salts are water soluble and can be removed with either old GI bore cleaners or hot water and soap. Follow with drying and oiling the barrel to protect it.
    The chlorate salts absorb and hold atmospheric water against the barrel causing the steel to rust. Oiling over the deposits does no good because the oil will not penetrate the water. Older bore cleaners contained water soluble oils which allowed them to flush the salts from the bore. Brodie

  20. #40
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    These were brand new primers purchased four years ago. I had bought a 100 pack of them a few years earlier and it was after that I noticed rusting and thought it was something else. Surely modern primers should not be corrosive?

    Would bore cleaners like Hoppe's and Sweet's remove the salts? I know that hot water and dishwasher liquid removes rust so maybe that would be a good way to go.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check