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Thread: Paper that DOESN'T work

  1. #1
    Boolit Man
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    Paper that DOESN'T work

    Hey everyone. Just been playing around with my Mosin and a new mold (lyman 301620) which measures out at about .301 or .3015. My Mosin slugs out at .3125. I had previously (last summer) tried paper patching a lee 309-170 gr boo lit up to about .3135-.314. I had issues with some pretty serious leading. I posted about it and someone suggested using thicker paper. Hence the smaller Boolit today. I pp'd it to .3135 again, obviously, with some thicker paper (loose leaf, about .0025"). I ran into the same issues as previously. I'm wondering if the loose leaf just doesn't have enough integrity to be used? Or is it more likely that there is something wrong (throat erosion????) with my gun.

    Thanks in advance for all the input!

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    What is the throat diameter, diameter of the lands, and groove? For the .270 Win i size to the diameter of the lands (basically turning the entire bullet into a bore rider) and the patch up to my throat diameter. I also don't patch the entire bullet. Just past the first driving band, so as to not affect my seating depth. I went through a bunch of papers of various types. Haven't gotten my grubby paws on some green bar paper, but i did finally find some tracing paper that worked for me. Size your bullets to your bore then find a paper thickness that will take you up to throat diameter or .001 over groove. I haven't pushed the envelope of accuracy and speed yet. It gave me nice tight groups at 2050 fps over the same load that i normally use for greased bullets.
    "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far."
    ~Theodore Roosevelt~

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    There is a tutorial on the many patching papers available found in C/Bs library. Buckshot wrote it.
    One die process many over look. i.e. little to no crimping involved and patching paper containing cotton not wood fibers is a suggested.

  4. #4
    In Remembrance


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    For my Mosin I cast an RCBS 30 - 180 FN and wrap unsized with wet copier paper. After drying over night I put a light JPW lube on the paper and run it thru my .315 push thru sizer I had made. I tried various papers, but stayed with copier white paper.Robert

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Bore or throat condition could be stripping the patch away. However, that can be fixed.

    Before


    After


    The bore is still rough but was handling full power loads delivering 2000 fps with a 194 gr boolit over 44 gr H4350 from a 14.6 inch barrel. I had to cut a bit off to get to 'usable' rifling (it was shortened already). That bore had a layer of scale from chamber to muzzle! And some in the chamber neck which doesn't affect it.

    I firelapped it with a brass boolit that I made for the purpose followed by a firelapping cartridge as shown in the next pics.



    There we have grits on top of wheat bran, then a card wad, then valve grinding paste. A patched boolit is then seated over the compound. That boolit needs to be short enough so as not to push back on chambering. The powder charge was H4227.

    The paper that has worked is ordinary printer paper. The patched and loaded boolit does need to be lubed though.

    Last edited by 303Guy; 03-28-2018 at 12:54 AM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  6. #6
    Boolit Man
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    303guy

    Thanks for that. The bore is definitely not perfect, there is some pitting. I haven't gotten a good look at the throat, but maybe what you're saying is the cause. I haven't noticed the paper "confetti-ing" after I shoot, and the leading is following the rifling (which I think indicates gas cutting?) so maybe that would make sense that the patch is getting stripped. Where did you get that brass bullet? Or would that not be necessary if I don't have scale in the barrel?

    In regards to everyone else's comments, thanks. I'll check out that page of paper that works for pp'ing, thats helpful. I checked my Boolit and it is a complete bore rider-the mold is specifically designed for PPIng and therefore the entire Boolit is .301. I sized it correctly for my bore (.3135 for a .3125 bore) But I'll maybe try a tiny bit bigger just to experiment.

    Thanks again everyone.

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I made the brass fire-lapping bullets. I measured the throat taper and bore and made the nose ride tight in the bore and the second ring engage the throat taper. The base shank holds a groove that is loaded with grit and seats within the neck so there is no exposed grit. I had a mishap with one - not enough powder charge to expel the bullet and it jammed in the throat. The pressure never did dissipate. When I eventually opened the bolt, the residual pressure tore off the case head. I never found that head but I still have the case body. So I'm very weary of that trick. But it cleaned the rust out of the the deepest crannies.

    This one has more bands than necessary.

    Here you can see two deep pits that cleaned out just fine.



    I'll be cutting the muzzle back further in due course, to a point where the rifling is still reasonable. I have other rusty bores to play with still.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 03-29-2018 at 01:25 AM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Just one thing, when using a cast boolit to fire-lap, don't grit the portion being seated in the neck.

    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  9. #9
    Boolit Man
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    Ok, so I finally made it home today and was able to check out the throat of this gun. It doesn't look that bad-at least to my unpracticed eye. No rust or obvious pitting. The bore is a bit pitted, but nowhere near what yours looked like 303guy.

    I was thinking, would the fact that my bore is counterbored have anything to do with my problem? I slugged my bore and got .3125, however if the last 3-4 inches is larger, wouldn't that allow gas cutting/leading/issues?

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    My 'pig gun' gave me bad gas cutting. The bore kept on going rough, hence the grinding paste under the boolit. In your case it may be the boolit is not filling the throat. I size my patched boolits to seat snugly in an unsized neck. The nose portion of the boolit is sized to engage the throat taper as much as possible. This does mean that boolit base get distorted on swaging down into the bore, leaving trailing edges. To solve that I added a small rebate to the boolit bases.

    The only factory mold I have is a Lee 180 gr .311 with gas check rebate. It patches up to fit several of my rifle throats but the nose shank is under bore diameter. I've never range tested it though.

    Something I have found with one rifle is the boolits enter the bore off centre. Yesterday I fired a jacketed bullet and it was positively canted in the bore, yet the bore is tight and the throat good. I have found a boolit that enters the bore concentrically and I plan on testing this boolit. It's long and fat and contacts the throat/leade at seating depth. For now all I've done with this boolit is smeer it with AutoSol metal polish and fire it into my boolit catch. The bore does need polishing and the polish acts as a lubricant.

    I would suggest slugging the muzzle end bore to check for reverse bore taper.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 03-30-2018 at 02:18 PM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  11. #11
    Boolit Man
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    Ok, I tried again with some copy paper that measured .0035". I patched the Boolit from .302 to about .315, which is as large as my gun will chamber. Despite the added thickness (and I think quality) in paper, I still got leading after 6 shots. I should mention that the bullets were seated pretty deeply into the case after chambering, so I guess .315 still might be a little fat. Nevertheless, something is compromising the patch on the way down the bore. I'm away from home again, but next time I'm back I'll try and take some pics of the Boolits and my bore.

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Are you lubing the patches?
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  13. #13
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    Are you lubing the patches?
    I put on a little bit of vaseline after the patch had dried.

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    One rifle I have is leading with normal patches but seems to be Ok with a boolit lube mix I have. That mix has some carnauba in it plus STP, hard paraffin wax and an extreme grease. It is mouldable and sticky enough to smear a lump onto the boolit base with the idea of lubing the bore for the next shot. I haven't tested this with a string of shots but a with a single shot fired with a lubed bore, the patch survived, cut in strips and there was no leading for a change. With another shot at low velocity, the inner, forward layer of patch was almost whole.

    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  15. #15
    Boolit Man
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    Interesting. Where do you get carnauba wax? I'll maybe have to give that a shot. Sorry, dumb question, but what is STP. I looked it up and it looks like a whole line of fuel additives/lubes/etc.

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    That would be STP Smoke Stopper engine oil additive. There are other brands of course. It's sticky and slippery stuff and is what I use as a case lube on my lube pad. The carnauba I found online (here in New Zealand).
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  17. #17
    Boolit Man
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    Ok, I've heard that there are a bunch of people out there using #16 copy paper. Out of curiosity, how thick is that? #20 seems to be about .0035 for me, so I'm assuming .003, or .0025?

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    20# paper is .0038 or 0.97 mm. 16# paper is .0032 or 0.082 mm. I get lined notepad paper at 0.067 mm and I've found lined notepad paper, which is tougher at 0.1 mm. Printer paper (20#) is soft and porous while the notepad paper of the same thickness is denser and tougher (notepad paper id denser than printer paper).

    I like printer paper because of its compressibility. This makes seating into an unsized neck great. The paper compresses without expanding the neck. To seat, I roll the patched boolit on the lube pad then seat immediately before the lube has time to soak away. It goes in easily (starting by finger then completing by press) and holds tight. I roll the loaded cartridge on the pad for more lube on the exposed patch and on the case - this prevents case elongation and head space separation.

    Printer paper is also great for dry patching. It also absorbs more lube which could be a high was lube.

    Here is a wax lubed patch that stayed on into the catch medium. It's a low pressure load of course.



    Something you might want to try is plain cast loads or subsonic even with paper patched. Increase the charge until the patch is coming off at the muzzle. In a worn bore, the patch is not cut by the rifling edges and also, the nose shank may be under bore size or not large enough to cut through as my photo shows, so more powder may be required.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 04-06-2018 at 03:32 PM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  19. #19
    Boolit Man
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    Ok, have access to my camera again, so I'll upload some pics. I doubt these will be super helpful, but they're better than nothing. I couldn't really get a good shot of the bore, but suffice it to say that there is leading in there. I think its clear enough to show that the bore isn't super pitted though.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSCF4448.jpg   DSCF4465.jpg  

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    The bore looks good. Very difficult to get a good shot of the bore though.

    I developed a load for a rifle with a well worn bore, starting from low velocity and working up until the patch was coming off the boolit. After a while the gun began to shoot badly so I fired a shot into the 'test tube' and found the patch was no longer disintegrating enough to come off properly. The bore had polished up. So I upped the powder charge.

    Perhaps try a series of loads with at different velocities and range test them to see what happens. You might find that at some point leading begins. Also accuracy at different levels would be useful. One of my rifles was leading near the muzzle. I've done some bore polishing and now need to range test.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 04-28-2018 at 10:46 PM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check