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Thread: Observations from a hunting show

  1. #1
    Boolit Master Thumbcocker's Avatar
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    Observations from a hunting show

    Mrs. Thumbcocker and I were watching one of the few hunting shows we like the other night, The host was hunting Texas white tails and hogs with a .300 win. mag. It looked like the Texas deer, especially the does they were culling, were a bit smaller that Illinois corn crunchers. Anyway the deer that were shot with the .300 tended to run 50 yards or so and then expire.

    I have not shot anywhere near the numbers of deer that the host or may of you on this forum have but I have put a fair number in the freezer over the years. I have shot deer with .50 cal muzzle loader with round balls and swaged bullets, Breneke and cast slugs, arrows, and .44 revolvers. The Breneke slugs were the 3" magnum ones that killed on one end and crippled on the other. Using all the various weaponry and projectiles a deer hit correctly would run 20-60 yards and expire, This does not include CNS hits of course but the classic heart lung shot. There have been exceptions but right now my hunting guns are a few .44 magnum revolvers. Deer hit with a boolit usually drop within 40 yards or so.

    I am not suggesting that a .44 revolver is equal to a .300 win mag. I just find it interesting that deer hit with projectiles with an extreme variation in power tend to behave in a pretty similar way.

    Thoughts or comments?
    You'll go far providin' you ain't burnt alive or scalped."

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  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy
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    Deer do weird things. The ones I hate the most fall down, rest, then jump up and run away as you approach.

  3. #3
    Boolit Man
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    Have in years past,had "damage permits" for controlling deer HERDS on local farmer properties.Have shot them in numbers with .22 RF up through handloaded '06's.Obviously shot location has to be at the top of any chart for importance.Also,throw in shot angle....but after that?I'd say how calm is the animal when hit has a marked effect but then it's a toss up comparing DRT vs runn oft.

    One of the last I shot with a firearm(trad bowhunter) ,blew the top of his heart off near 100 with a TC ,ML'er....still managed to go 40 or so yards,and he was pretty calm at the shot.Best bang flops were on two consecutive does standing right next to each other.Chest hit with 150g Sierra pro hunters.Both went down like bowling pins.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master

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    I remember a doe I took with a traditional Hawkins-style 50 Cal percussion. Patched ball, 80 yds. Took the top of the heart off.

    The doe was walking peacefully when hit, and took off on impact.

    I waited 20 minutes, then followed. It was piled up about 30 yds away, stone dead. Ball was a complete pass through.

    That ball couldn't have been doing more than 950 fps on impact.

    I suppose at "way out there" distances the high vel super mag would be better, but that's not how I hunt.
    "Varium et mutabile semper femina." - Virgil
    Man, ain't it the truth....

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    It depends on where in Texas they were, but I would expect their white tails to be quite a bit smaller than what you have in Illinois. My hunting spot is about an hour and a half west of Fort Worth. The local processor told me 120lbs dressed is a good mature buck. They usually get one or two a year that are around 150lbs. The largest he had ever seen dressed at 175. In my area, a doe that dresses out at 80-90 lbs is really big. Of course, we average about 18" of rain per year.

    My experience has been that the location of the hit has more to do with how far they go than what you use. We've taken deer with 30-06, 243, 357 mag rifle, 223 and 6.8 spc. The one that traveled the farthest was a broadside heart-lung shot on a nice buck at 35 yds with a 30-06 150gr silvertip. Nothing but liquid in his chest and he still ran a little over 100 yds before dropping. Hit a big bone or the spine and they drop immediately. Otherwise, they either walk or run a bit.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master kens's Avatar
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    Deer are not a ferocious toothy animal, not thick skinned, and mostly smaller than a man.
    It really doesnt take much caliber to put one down.
    300mag , I dont believe is a good deer round, true the 300 carries 300yards well, but then, how many people can put a shot in the vitals out at 300yds? Most people cannot.
    The best game shots are inside 100yards ( where people can hit the vitals ) and then inside 100 yards lighter calibers are ample.
    As far as 'high power rifles' are concerned, the 257Roberts, 243win, 300Savage, 30-30, 35rem, none of these are really 'high power', but yet they account for a great many venison on the table.
    If you hit the vitals with a lowly muzzleloader & round ball, it then is just as good as 300mag, a dead deer is still dead. The deer doesnt care one way or the other.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    High velocity his overrated if ranges are less than 200 yards. My favorite deer projectile is a 45 cal PRB but last fall I tested my 7mm TCU with a 140 gr CB from a Lee mold at an MV of 1650 fps and it worked almost as well on a 200# doe at 75 yards ( I was specifically after that old huge doe).

  8. #8
    i don't like to use jacketed bullets. as a matter of fact, i only used jacketed bullet only 1 day, then i went to cast boolits. i only hunt deer to about 150 yards. if they're much further than 150 yards, well theres always the next day. i don't like to watch hunting shows. too much advertisement for me.

    my deer are about 150lbs dreesed. they will go 250-275 lbs, but its rare. i and my son have shot deer before that goes 250lbs dressed. (i weighed the doe i shot on the processor's scale and it was 248lbs dressed.) i have shot them with my 50cal flintlock and rb (1700-1800?fps) and they didn't go anywhere but to my freezer. my 30-40 krag has put meat in my freezer for years. a 165gr(173gr actually) ranch dog with a charge of h4198 that goes 1800fps will take deer out to 150 yards.

    my friend uses a rem m700 in 338 rum and a 250gr nosler partition factory loads. now this is for hunting deer only!!!! he hunts deer close, about 40-50 yards. he has shot three deer, all does. they have gone 100-175 yards after the shot. he complains that they go that far. i just laugh and tell him he should use a 30-30, cuz they are drt or go about 40 yards.

    i use a 444 marlin and a 280gr wfn gc that goes approx 1800fps . i hunt deer close too, 40-50 yards. i shoot them and they are drt or go about 20 yards. i don't complain.
    "None are staying here"
    Maria Orsic
    Oct 31, 1895 - March 11, 1945 Missing

  9. #9
    Boolit Master Texas by God's Avatar
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    Heart shot deer typically leap straight up then run till they realize they are dead. Whatever you hit them with. On un-alarmed deer, I'll aim for the high shoulder shot to immobilize or the neck for DRT. But every deer is different. Power wise, I think the 30-30 is perfect within 200 yards IMO.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by kobeinu View Post
    Deer do weird things. The ones I hate the most fall down, rest, then jump up and run away as you approach.
    I do not feel bad now for you to say that. I am not the only one that have that happened.or they go down and when you go to them they get back up and then gone.They did not rest .
    Life Member of NRA,NTA,DAV ,ITA. Also member of FTA,CBA

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookworm View Post
    I remember a doe I took with a traditional Hawkins-style 50 Cal percussion. Patched ball, 80 yds. Took the top of the heart off.

    The doe was walking peacefully when hit, and took off on impact.

    I waited 20 minutes, then followed. It was piled up about 30 yds away, stone dead. Ball was a complete pass through.

    That ball couldn't have been doing more than 950 fps on impact.

    I suppose at "way out there" distances the high vel super mag would be better, but that's not how I hunt.
    I’m a bit curious about your load. Using Hodgdon’s info I estimate the load I’ve been using to break in my rifle but with a more energetic powder (70 grns of 3F) to run at about 1830 fps at the muzzle and at 900’ above sea level this still has 1188 fps at 75 yds.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Friends in Houston talked me into getting on a deer lease with 'em out near Fredricksburg; west of Austin. I asked them what cartridge they were using in their rifles and they said .222 Rem. I laughed until I actually saw the size of the deer. They were overgunned!
    There are only to kinds of men:

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  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmitty View Post
    Friends in Houston talked me into getting on a deer lease with 'em out near Fredricksburg; west of Austin. I asked them what cartridge they were using in their rifles and they said .222 Rem. I laughed until I actually saw the size of the deer. They were overgunned!
    I’ve mostly hunted near the town of Doss not far from Fredericksburg and lived around San Antonio. Small indeed. Much like dogs with long legs and necks really. But with the population levels allowing for up to 5 a year and easily being able to collect that many in a weekend if one wanted to do that much work I find it ok.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    I hunt in central Southern Illinois. My Deer tower sits facing a small pond. When deer walk along the dam going west they at the shortest distance is 55 yards. Varying on the other angle to a little over 60 yards . Slight angle shot. i have watch 12 Ga. light fields blow out the other side as I ride the recoil up. use Left eye for something guys. Some kicked so high with a heart shot I thought they were going to turn end over end. Some run 10 yards and stop. YES I give'm another one if standing in the brush openings. One ran a little over 100 and crossed the road and fell over still in a dead run. i can see them all most to the road. Yes I listen for cars BEFORE firing. THE BAD PART OF THIS SET UP IS SOMETIMES THE DEER DON'T COME FOR ME. But I do get to watch all sorts of MORONS using the rest room , ETC.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    There is NO question in my mind that 12 GAUGE SLUGS have extreme horse power. I think the state should legalize straight wall cases for rifles like Indiana has done. Spelling Mistake for their state..?

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Once again, this all goes to prove that FPE don't kill, it's blood loss and drop in blood pressure leading to unconsciousness! ie, the 22lr kills just as dead ad the 45acp, just not as quick.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by rodwha View Post
    I’m a bit curious about your load. Using Hodgdon’s info I estimate the load I’ve been using to break in my rifle but with a more energetic powder (70 grns of 3F) to run at about 1830 fps at the muzzle and at 900’ above sea level this still has 1188 fps at 75 yds.
    Okay, I admit I may be wrong (mark it down, boys !). I was making a WAG (wild-a$$ guess). The ball could have been going faster, but I bet not much.

    It was 20+ years ago, but as I recall, I was using 60-ish gr of Pyrodex, because my rifle liked that load. I could easily keep 3 shots in a gallon jug at 100yds standing offhand - my eyes were younger then...

    I never ran it over a chrono, I didn't have one at the time. The altitude of 900' is fairly accurate, perhaps a bit high.

    I was hunting on some land I used to own, out Checotah way. It was pretty heavy brush, and an 80-yd shot was about as long as one could get there. I never worried about velocity, because the shots were so close.
    "Varium et mutabile semper femina." - Virgil
    Man, ain't it the truth....

  18. #18
    Boolit Master RU shooter's Avatar
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    Yep sometimes the deer don't know their dead ! For a double lung or heart shot they will do the death run till the blood pressure drops to zero usually that's about 7 seconds. A deer running full out can cover some ground in 7 seconds. A bigger hole in and out let's out more blood . Shock from a high speed bullet don't seem to matter when no bones are hit or when the cns isn't effected . If I'm hunting near the top of the hill I tend to aim for bone or high shoulder . I'm getting too old to drag them UP the hill anymore .

    Tim
    If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookworm View Post
    Okay, I admit I may be wrong (mark it down, boys !). I was making a WAG (wild-a$$ guess). The ball could have been going faster, but I bet not much.

    It was 20+ years ago, but as I recall, I was using 60-ish gr of Pyrodex, because my rifle liked that load. I could easily keep 3 shots in a gallon jug at 100yds standing offhand - my eyes were younger then...

    I never ran it over a chrono, I didn't have one at the time. The altitude of 900' is fairly accurate, perhaps a bit high.

    I was hunting on some land I used to own, out Checotah way. It was pretty heavy brush, and an 80-yd shot was about as long as one could get there. I never worried about velocity, because the shots were so close.
    That velocity guesstimate was possible. Looking through my Lyman BP handbook shows some very low velocities depending on powder and charge.

    There are a few people on traditional forums who use lighter loads with a ball as their range is close and they see no need to use more. Just curious if you were doing the same. Looking now in my handbook with that charge you are actually quite close. However, according to Hodgdon’s published data, those figures are a bit low.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    I have killed a lot of deer with everything from 54 cal. muzzleloader and hot 45-70 to 7mmRemMag.....in between 308W, 6mm Remington, 7x30 Waters, 44 Magnum in a rifle and 12 and 20ga. shotgun slugs. I aim for the heart lung area. Most go down within 50 yds. Some drop in their tracks....and one with both lungs and the top of the heart destroyed ran over 150yds before deciding to die. I see no correlation between the size and speed of the bullet and how far a double lunged deer will go.

    I also bow hunt....guess what....most bow shot deer through both lungs pile up and die within 150 yds too if you don't push them.

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