C&B revolver accuracy

[Ballistics in Scotland]

For .44's you can generally size down .45 revolver molds to slightly over chamber diameter (a .450 sizer usually works for me) and then size the rear 2/3's or even 3/4's of the bearing surface to just below chamber diameter. The boolit selection and the charge selection have to be figgered out because you're trying to get it to expand into the rifling but if you are willing to do load development for caseless ammo then yep, it works.

Wanta try Lyman #450229 with a replacement plug, the hind side having a slight step on the tail to slip into the chambers on my Pietta 1858. Can just shoot them as cast without sizing.
Attachment 217065

Unaltered cartridge revolver bullets are a bad idea, because it is so likely that the revolver rammer would drive them off-line into the cylinder. It might work better with a device for simultaneously charging six chambers in a separate cylinder, and almost certainly if you made a device like the false muzzle which was used with Scheutzen and benchrest muzzle-loaders. In fact if you had a spare cylinder with the same spacing of chambers, that would be a good way of making one.

The tubular-ended pin for the Lyman mould should be easier and work very well. I have seen something like this used successfully to cast for heel-bullet cartridge revolvers. Assuming the right relationship of chamber to groove diameter, I would take it forward to eliminate the last lube groove, leaving two bands to be reduced by ramming into the chamber. With that sort of alignment the revolver rammer should be fine, and the inertia should produce more upsetting, if you need it, than a round ball.

[indian joe]

Before doing that fly-reamer job I would be inclined to check the alignment of chambers and bore carefully. If it isn't perfect, that gives you a chance to improve it. I would fit a solid plug, or one with a very small central hole, and drill it with an extra long drill guided by bore bushings. It should be small enough to avoid straining the locking bolt (or you could temporariy hold everything in place with a hard wax or car body filler), and large enough not to follow that central hole if you have one. Then use those holes to guide a piloted counterbore.

I suppose if a cartridge bullet .001in. over groove diameter needs and doesn't get obturation, it is because it is sized down by the chamber throat. Besides the lower charge than a rifle, the reduced inertia of the front end of the lighter bullet is against it. So, I think, is the use of a felt wad. In any case I don't like the sound of these with a round ball, because if they go cup-shaped, they may go narrower, and the gas will pass them by. They would be better with a flat-based bullet, but not as good, I think, as an incompressible wax cookie between discs of card.

Instead of all this foolin round - why not fix the core problem??
I reamed an army cylinder out to .462 to make it all fit - but I only went .340 deep - thats about all you need to load a ball - so most of the length of the cylinder is left intact - heres a picture of my practice cylinder -(had a spare a bloke gave me) the two chambers at the top of the picture have been reamed from 449 out to .4585 (used that reamer to also make a boolit size die for my 45/75) - look close you can see the step in the chamber wall to the left of the loaded ball - that ball is a 454 just lightly sitting on the step in that chamber - this was just a practice run - we ended up taking the real cylinder out to .462 (same as the rifling groove depth) and use a .464 ball. There must be more than a few pistols out there like this as Pedersoli makes stock roundball molds in .462 and .464 as well as the normal smaller pistol ones (.457,.454,.451)

[hylander]

My cap and ball revolvers are very accurate.
Every Pietta 1858 I have had (six so far) shoots like this:
Firts pic is round ball.
Second pic 200gr. 45 colt conversion @25yds,

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Instead of all this foolin round - why not fix the core problem??
I reamed an army cylinder out to .464 to make it all fit - but I only went .340 deep - thats about all you need to load a ball - so most of the length of the cylinder is left intact

Yes, reaming the cylinder to groove diameter (or a fraction over), and using something large enough for a convenient force fit, is the perfect situation.

I have never heard convincingly that round ball is much inferior in power or accuracy. But if you want that something to have elongated bearing surfaces, the problem is getting a bullet that will enter the chamber in a straight line, and still give that tight fit. Some reaming jobs, though not yours, will be happy with the Lee 456-220-1R , made for the Ruger Old Army. But if you want to take a modern flat-based revolver bullet as cast, you need some sort of straight-line inserting device.

I got good results with a Bohemian double rifle and the bullet made for the .50-70 Government, by making a simple loading block with a bore for the bullet, inserted by pressure on the base, and a pin just the right distance away to fit into the other barrel. That could be done with a revolver, but it means removing the cylinder to load.

[rodwha]

Yes, reaming the cylinder to groove diameter (or a fraction over), and using something large enough for a convenient force fit, is the perfect situation.

I have never heard convincingly that round ball is much inferior in power or accuracy. But if you want that something to have elongated bearing surfaces, the problem is getting a bullet that will enter the chamber in a straight line, and still give that tight fit. Some reaming jobs, though not yours, will be happy with the Lee 456-220-1R , made for the Ruger Old Army. But if you want to take a modern flat-based revolver bullet as cast, you need some sort of straight-line inserting device.

I got good results with a Bohemian double rifle and the bullet made for the .50-70 Government, by making a simple loading block with a bore for the bullet, inserted by pressure on the base, and a pin just the right distance away to fit into the other barrel. That could be done with a revolver, but it means removing the cylinder to load.

I know a few people like to use modern bullets and will resize the base so as to fit into the chambers.

[indian joe]

My cap and ball revolvers are very accurate.
Every Pietta 1858 I have had (six so far) shoots like this:
Firts pic is round ball.
Second pic 200gr. 45 colt conversion @25yds,

I have an ASM shoots like that and didnt need to be messed with - all ours are old - bought second hand - the two needed help were a navy arms (I think) 1860 Army and a CVA Walker belong to my son - I swear the rifling on those two barrels was identical - both of em now shoot as good as yours. I am not advocating fixing things that aint broke - if it works good and shoots nice go burn some powder! But dont put up with second rate accuracy just because it is a hundred and fifty year old design - these things can shoot.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=Ballistics in Scotland;4330503]Yes, reaming the cylinder to groove diameter (or a fraction over), and using something large enough for a convenient force fit, is the perfect situation.

I have never heard convincingly that round ball is much inferior in power or accuracy. But if you want that something to have elongated bearing surfaces, the problem is getting a bullet that will enter the chamber in a straight line, and still give that tight fit. Some reaming jobs, though not yours, will be happy with the Lee 456-220-1R , made for the Ruger Old Army. But if you want to take a modern flat-based revolver bullet as cast, you need some sort of straight-line inserting device.

a couple of things here 1) by reaming for a round ball fit you leave most of the cylinder wall intact - I took 5 thou more than the picture shows and I think my proper cylinder was a tad smaller diameter than the practice one pictured - it was skinny enough to make you think about what you doin.
2) the roundball loads easy and fast - I dont know what the attraction of a flat based revolver bullet is in a capgun - I have ZERO interest in that - comes under the heading of useless foolin around - they dont shoot better than a ball - way more messing around loading - more difficult to cast - nothing at all to recommend it - but also a safety issue - I would not ream that Army cylinder deep enough at .462 to take a cylindrical boolit - I dont think that would be smart at all.

[bigted]

Joe, i am inclined to be in your camp with the round ball's. I have an older pietta 61 sheriff and i once shot over 50 of my cig paper cartridges with no lube whatsoever, never a bobble nor hickup, but the fact remains that for all the 50 shots, the accuracy remained hovering around the 4 inch area at 25 yds. Hence my quest for a more accurate setup for small game hunting and accurate paper punching.

Round balls carry plenty of whompom for what i have in mind. If i desire hunting bigger stuff i have plenty of suppository revolvers to accomplish this.

[indian joe]

Joe, i am inclined to be in your camp with the round ball's. I have an older pietta 61 sheriff and i once shot over 50 of my cig paper cartridges with no lube whatsoever, never a bobble nor hickup, but the fact remains that for all the 50 shots, the accuracy remained hovering around the 4 inch area at 25 yds. Hence my quest for a more accurate setup for small game hunting and accurate paper punching.

Round balls carry plenty of whompom for what i have in mind. If i desire hunting bigger stuff i have plenty of suppository revolvers to accomplish this.

4 inch doesnt sound good enough huh! - heres somethin for ya to chew on - if you can properly centre a 4inch group at 25 yards you will score over 90 - and it will take an olympic standard pistol shot to beat you - (gotta do it onehand offhand of course!!! ). ....... sounds simple .. but if the gun can only do 4inch and the operator can only do four inch - then thats lookin like most of 8 inches and now you is back in my league

[indian joe]

Update, went out and resluged everything on the 61 and dont know where i got those numbers but the correct numbers for the Uberti 36 cal model 1861 are as follows,

Bore -- .3665
Groove -- .375

Cylinder mouth -- .372

So with these corrected numbers it looks like my task is smaller than i thought.

Think my reaming to the cylinder should be .377 inch and then i will have a .002 crush into the barrel grooves for a great fit.

What say yee?

Big Ted ----I say 375 - thats a bog standard 3 eights inch reamer easy to find/borrow - put a little chamfer on the cylinder mouths - ya need a bigger ball tho.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

If that is a hand reamer it is likely to have about a sixty-fourth of an inch of taper for the last 38in. or so of length. It should enter the existing chamber, and is pretty close to the minimum weakening you suggested. I would chuck the reamer in a bench drill, and hold the cylinder in an old lathe chuck I use as a machine vice for round things. But I would both position that "vice" and rotate the reamer by hand. The drill would just be to ensure verticality.

Unfortunately I don't believe anything as cheap and easily found will do for a .44.

[Good Cheer]

Goodness!! Understand obturation very well and have plenty experience taking advantage of the science involved IN RIFLES where 50 grains is the least amount of black powder used and mostly from 70 to 135 grains of 2Fg and 3Fg. Obturation works very well when you have such a kick in the hiney to immediately swell the projectile of near pure lead to fill the grooves in the barrel.

Now for what i do not know is whether this works with the smaller charges such as 21 grains in 44 cal AND dealing with a cylinder gap that will bleed off much of the needed pressure that performs this obturation magic. Let alone the 17 grain charges in my 36, both shooting conicals that limit the room for a larger charge.

4 and 5 + inch groups at 25 yds are not going to cut it for me past simply shooting large steel targets as fast as you can. This kinda accuracy has no place when wanting to take a squirrel in the noggin which is around 1 inch if lucky, grouse heads even smaller but rabbits being a bit larger in the noodle.

Hard to grasp ... i think not!

Looks to me as though a flat base can expand with a small charge when it has a big lube groove not very far from the base. And I don't know why exactly but it works on a maxiball too. But then the big lube groove is wasted space in a pre-defined available volume if it isn't being used by lead or powder.
Other than that a shallow hollow base with the skirt appropriately thin can be made to work. If the load is being worked up for hunting it imposes more considerations because heavy (for inertia and expansion into the rifling) means less powder... it's all a trade off.

[rodwha]

Other than that a shallow hollow base with the skirt appropriately thin can be made to work. If the load is being worked up for hunting it imposes more considerations because heavy (for inertia and expansion into the rifling) means less powder... it's all a trade off.

Well that all depends on the design. I created a 195 grn WFN bullet that is just .460”, or barely longer than a ball so as not to take up powder capacity.

[Edward]

Just got a new to me Lyman 1858 /44cal today ,unfortunately my Lee 451 RB mold will not get here till Monday .I think a range day will still happen as my 445 balls now are a sporty red and come in at 450-451 . Not traditional but it will be noisy/smokey ,accurate don"t know but will be fun ! Attachment 217215

[indian joe]

If that is a hand reamer it is likely to have about a sixty-fourth of an inch of taper for the last 38in. or so of length. It should enter the existing chamber, and is pretty close to the minimum weakening you suggested. I would chuck the reamer in a bench drill, and hold the cylinder in an old lathe chuck I use as a machine vice for round things. But I would both position that "vice" and rotate the reamer by hand. The drill would just be to ensure verticality.

Unfortunately I don't believe anything as cheap and easily found will do for a .44.

I made my 458 reamer from a grade five high tensile bolt - it worked a treat (or did I get lucky?) - made the .462 from a grade eight bolt - that was just a bit tooooooo clever - didnt work so well - same old deal aint broke dont fix it!!! - the grade five is just carbon steel - easy to harden - grade eight is a much tougher alloy steel and the same heat treatment did not work - luckily the bolt itself was good enough to take the last bit out of those two cylinders but that was all it would do. Tother one is still good and sharp.
The process took about an hour - just turn an appropriate size bolt to correct dimension (polished), set up in the mill and cut four flutes (I eyeballed the setup of the flutes), sharpen the flutes carefully by hand, spun it in my drill press with the oxy torch on it till we got dull red heat, dunked in oil to cool, done deal.! I have a decent lathe and a milldrill.

[bigted]

4 inch doesnt sound good enough huh! - heres somethin for ya to chew on - if you can properly centre a 4inch group at 25 yards you will score over 90 - and it will take an olympic standard pistol shot to beat you - (gotta do it onehand offhand of course!!! ). ....... sounds simple .. but if the gun can only do 4inch and the operator can only do four inch - then thats lookin like most of 8 inches and now you is back in my league

Naaa 4 inch will not do. Im not an Olympic shooter and almost all shooting is done rested. I am a realist tho and might be reaching for the unreachable, but will continue reaching anyway as i have seen some awful good groups with just small tinkering done , with my centerfire revolvers.

8 INCH? Wow. Thats terrible. I used to target practice at 100+ yards with an old security six and hit 6 to 8 inch targets of opportunity in an old rock quarry.

[Good Cheer]

For the Pietta .44's, perhaps an 11.4mm hand reamer?

[Hanshi]

I've only owned 2 c&b revolvers, a Navy Arms 1858 Remington many decades ago, and a Rogers and Spencer more recently. The Rogers & Spencer stayed well under 2" at 25 yards and that was with the flimsy, wiggly and tiny front "sight".

[heelerau]

I don't seem to have a problem with my cap and balls, a London Navy and 3rd Mod dragoon. I do load with a greased hard felt wad over powder. I have found that keeps the bore clear and helps compress a lighter load. I just use round ball, and have been known to win an event with my Navy and beat blokes with much smarter pistols with much better sights

[John Taylor]

Found out about the cylinder problems about 40 years ago. Have reamed many cylinders out to groove diameter with no problems. Never had a cylinder rupture but I do know where there is one the came apart from using smokeless. When I was making cartridge conversion cylinders I used a dummy barrel to line the reamer up for boring the cylinder. An ATF agent suggested I don't do that anymore so I quit making them.