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Thread: C&B revolver accuracy

  1. #1
    Banned bigted's Avatar
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    C&B revolver accuracy

    Never been particularly impressed with accuracy from my cap revolvers. Tried every trick in the book except this that recently came to my attention.

    In every other firearm i have slugged the barrel for the groove diameter and always loaded at least this diameter boolit or a thou or two over groove for accuracy.

    Recently i have seen a blurp or two about the cylinder versus barrel diameters not matching on the modern cap revolvers ... so i set out to see where mine came in in this regard.

    Both Uberti, one a 60 civilian and a 61 civilian revolvers.

    The 44 cal 60 is a .455 inch groove barrel with a .448 cylinder diameter.

    The 36 cal 61 is a .380 groove with a .374 inch cylinder.

    Both having a .006 and .007 inch difference between grove needs and cylinder provisions.

    Seems to me for total engagement and gas seal in the barrel i will need to have these cylinders reamed to provide the correct size boolit into the forcing cone.

    Do this ring true to anyone or sound like I'm suckin hind tit?

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Yeah, it helps.

    I've said before that if somebody created a barrel replacement service for modern reproduction 1858's that they could make big bucks.
    That way the barrels would be just a little bit smaller bore and the cylinder walls wouldn't get thinned.

  3. #3
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    curator's Avatar
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    BigTed,

    You have discovered the principal reason why reproduction cap & ball revolvers do not shoot as accurately as do originals. Do a search on this site and you will find lots of information on correcting this and the increase in accuracy. The use of a lubed felt wad or a filler of corn meal or better yet, Cream of Wheat between ball and powder can help to minimise gas leakage around an undersize ball, but having the cylinder chambers being the correct diameter is the best "fix."

  4. #4
    Boolit Man
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    Yep. I played with one of mine over the summer. Reaming the cylinder, fixing the timing, making the muzzle square, and smoothing the horrific forcing cone.

    I reamed the cylinders with a 29/64s reamer, or .4531. That's about as thin as I dared go. I put a light chamfer on the cylinders and use .457s now.

    When I started it couldn't keep 6 balls on a sheet of copy paper and after it would do 3-4" at the same distance.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Well its seems difficult for Ruger at times to make a modern revolver with properly sized throats at $600 for a gun. Really hard to expect it out of a company like Pietta since Spain was not known for their quality and half the cost of a Ruger. And there are no standards so can make them how ever they want.

    I have been cutting up a 45 cal traditions Kentucky rifle barrel. It was free, I have a lathe so its material for whatever. Consistency must not be a word in Spanish. Cant imagine had the rifle been assembled it would be very accurate with the bore so out of concentric and varying in internal dimensions. Plus the soft metal its made out of. Not even marked as to caliber or twist.

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Just a passing thought on making lemonade...

    Over the years the Lyman #450229 was made a little differently from time to time.
    Sometimes the bore diameter on the hole for the hollow base plug was the same as the bands on the bullet and sometimes it was stepped down a little smaller.
    On one set of blocks I just measured the bore and got .444-.445. That's about right for a tail to sit in a Pietta chamber to get alignment for seating the boolit.
    Sooo, a shorter plug would make a Pietta boolit? But that wouldn't improve anything unless it had a skirt wall thin enough to seal off with relatively light powder charges and there being virtually no bullet inertia to help promote hollow base expansion. Or maybe a flat base would be worth trying. Any how, the plug is missing so maybe now there's a good excuse to design one!

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master Harter66's Avatar
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    A Remington 58' I slugged had 4 different sized chambers . The barrel was .426×.440 . The chambers now match @.448 which with a conical is less than optimal it made that one shoot well with RB .
    There is also an ASM Dragoon repro with a .445 groove and a .448 chambers . Didn't shoot it but I expect it would shoot the intended conical well .

    Last is a 36 cal 58' with a .364 groove and .370 chambers . It shoots well also with RB but I didn't have conical to try .

    Being as dumb as I am I figured that caseless BP ought to follow the same rules for accuracy as CF getting a little break for the flexibility of dead soft .
    In the time of darkest defeat,our victory may be nearest. Wm. McKinley.

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    Richard Lee Hart 6/29/39-7/25/18


    Without trial we cannot learn and grow . It is through our stuggles that we become stronger .
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  8. #8
    Banned bigted's Avatar
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    Herter, .364 groove or bore? My bore would work but the grooves go too sloppy for a good gas seal.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    If using the proper BHN ball or conical, which in a cap and ball revolver should mean 6- 8 BHN, pure lead or near as, there should be sufficient obturation for the ball or conical to fill out to groove depth. Removing material from the cylinder walls is not to be advised. Pure lead or there abouts is remarkably malleable and, when used with black powder, undergoes substantial shape change during internal ballistics.

    http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCBAlloyObturation.htm

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master Harter66's Avatar
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    Grooves .

    Now understand that a 6" Sec 6 in 357 and an old M10 will out shoot the 36 .
    The 58's are pretty good for what they are .
    In the time of darkest defeat,our victory may be nearest. Wm. McKinley.

    I was young and stupid then I'm older now. Me 1992 .

    Richard Lee Hart 6/29/39-7/25/18


    Without trial we cannot learn and grow . It is through our stuggles that we become stronger .
    Brother I'm going to be Pythagerus , DiVinci , and Atlas all rolled into one soon .

  11. #11
    Boolit Grand Master Harter66's Avatar
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    I did mention lapping to match vs cutting meat out of walls .
    In the time of darkest defeat,our victory may be nearest. Wm. McKinley.

    I was young and stupid then I'm older now. Me 1992 .

    Richard Lee Hart 6/29/39-7/25/18


    Without trial we cannot learn and grow . It is through our stuggles that we become stronger .
    Brother I'm going to be Pythagerus , DiVinci , and Atlas all rolled into one soon .

  12. #12
    Banned bigted's Avatar
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    Have looked at the 44 m-60 and it is pretty slim in the cylinder walls so maybe leave it alone and try other fix's for accuracy with it.

    However the '61' 36 cal has plenty of meat to ream out so as to begin a ball or boolit at .001 or .002 inch over groove so as to have the soft lead completely seal the barrel and grip the rifling for, im bettin, way better luck in the accuracy dept.

    For small game, grouse rabbits and squirrels n such, the 36 cal is more then efficient in power and economy anyway. No chance i will hunt bigger game then a tin can with the 44 anyway.

    Accurate molds will be a resource for a custom mold for the 36.

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Years ago I had an original Colt 1860 Army reworked by the late Patrick W. Felker. He uniformed the cylinder throats to .453", reamed the barrel forcing cone to 11° and recrowned the barrel, as well as adjusting the timing. With .457" ball cast 1:40 tin-lead and 28 grains of Goex 3Fg, Ox Yoke Originals wad and Crisco over the ball, it shot ten-ring groups at 25 yards.
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  14. #14
    Boolit Master scattershot's Avatar
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    In 1865,Bill Hickok shot Dave Tutt through the heart at 75 yards with a Colt Navy, so they must have been pretty accurate back in the day.
    Last edited by scattershot; 03-23-2018 at 03:58 PM.
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  15. #15
    Banned bigted's Avatar
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    Update, went out and resluged everything on the 61 and dont know where i got those numbers but the correct numbers for the Uberti 36 cal model 1861 are as follows,

    Bore -- .3665
    Groove -- .375

    Cylinder mouth -- .372

    So with these corrected numbers it looks like my task is smaller than i thought.

    Think my reaming to the cylinder should be .377 inch and then i will have a .002 crush into the barrel grooves for a great fit.

    What say yee?

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    Years ago I had an original Colt 1860 Army reworked by the late Patrick W. Felker. He uniformed the cylinder throats to .453", reamed the barrel forcing cone to 11° and recrowned the barrel, as well as adjusting the timing. With .457" ball cast 1:40 tin-lead and 28 grains of Goex 3Fg, Ox Yoke Originals wad and Crisco over the ball, it shot ten-ring groups at 25 yards.
    What kind of velocity did that load give? Ball weight was about 140 grains?
    Colt's Manufacturing Company Armorer Instructor
    Aimpoint USA L/E Pro Staff
    Co-owner Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS)

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy
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    I would not modify a cylinder. I would take the guns back to the seller, if possible, and have them returned to Uberti explaining cylinder to barrel differences and let them fix the problem. If they wont fix it, there is always social media to tell the world how they feel about their customers. just saying.........

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    About 750-780 fps
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  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    "I would not modify a cylinder" Please explain why not -

  20. #20
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortlegs View Post
    I would not modify a cylinder. I would take the guns back to the seller, if possible, and have them returned to Uberti explaining cylinder to barrel differences and let them fix the problem. If they wont fix it, there is always social media to tell the world how they feel about their customers. just saying.........
    All the ranting in the world on facebook and you still wont have a gun that shoots.

    I bought my pair for $75 total. It was a good learning tool for me to learn a bit about revolver work...and I had little to lose.

    My revolvers, as they were made, had less than 1/1000 of rifling engagement. There's simply no way to fix that without making the cylinder bigger, or a replacement barrel. A barrel, of course, would cost more than I paid for the pair.

    I shoot cylinders full of 3f with the cylinders reamed to .4531.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check