School Me on Picking A No. 4

[samari46]

The bolt head on a #4 should have the bolt fully screwed in and the bottom of the bolt head should be close or touching the front of the bolt body. The amount the bolt head mentioned is the maximum the bolt head should swing past being fully engaged. Never have the threads take the strain when fired. Armor's when fitting bolt heads at the arsenal or factory had bins of bolt heads. if one didn't match up according to the specs then they would simply try another one until the fit was according to specs. Kinda a trial and error thing. Frank

[Bigslug]

Got a happy price on both the P14 and a No.4 MKI (F). No.4 is all matched and clean. #1 headspace bolt head and not too crazy on the swing-past. Needs a couple of rear sight parts which I've already ordered. . .with sling. . .and spike bayonet. . .and stripper clips. . . Thanks for the assist fellas!

[303Guy]

Good to hear! Now we need photos.

[Texas by God]

The No.4 is THE bolt action battle rifle. And it won a G&A WW2 shootout. But the P14 will be better in the reloading end of things I suspect. Good snag and where are the pictures?

[Multigunner]

A thing to remember about the No.4 is that the majority of the war time manufacture barrels are very sensitive to bullet types. Some will put flat based bullets into tight groups but scatter boatail bullets hither and yon often key holing every round. Others will handle any bullet of any weight so long as a fast burning propellant is used but fire patterns rather than groups if slow powders are used.

Load development can be tricky with those barrels.

[tbx-4]

With my limited experience with Lee Enfields I’d say the sensitivity to flat based versus boat tail bullets is from the condition of the crown on the muzzle. Re-crowning an old barrel never hurts.

My 1942 Maltby No4 Mk1 with 2 groove barrel shoots very tight groups after re-crowning. Used a 1/4-20 brass stove bolt and valve grinding compound spun in a drill motor to make new crown.

[leebuilder]

Welcome to the 303 enigma. I won't dought anyones experience, but I have found.
Barrels and barrel condition is crucial, but bad barrels can shoot good groups????
Bedding is crucial, but free floating improves short range groups. Front bedded barrels shoot great groups at long range.
Flat base or boat tail. I prefer flat base, so do most other 303 shooters, proof is on the paper. I think it's about how much of the bullet engages the rifling.
Slow versus fast powders, well you will have to try that one for yourself but I don't think I can improve on a 150gr bullet under re22. My hunting round is 174 or 180gr under H335, I call it a meat missle.
The "king" bushing has alot to do with consistency, once it's properly seated and torqued groups will improve!.
The crown must be even and in good shape, this is for all rifles, most 303s have some damage from maintaince. Most sporters or "bombers" have bad crowns but shoot just fine, once fixed they shoot great over a greater range of ammo especially our beloved lead boolits.
Trigger smoothness is crucial at.range and your cocking piece must be tight on the firing pin.
Headspace isn't crucial unless you intend to reload for that rifle.
The throat is problematic you can find rifles that look like they have no throat for three inches and shoot just fine. Some newer barrels still need breaking in.
2 groove, 5 or 6 groove seen many 2 groove out shoot an other barrel.
I am sure you will never own a 303, you are just the custodian of said rifle during your lifetime.
"On the line with a 5 round charger,,,,,,, LOAD!!!"
be well.

[303Guy]

I have a two-groove No4 that shoots Privi Partisan 180gr boat tails very accurately. They are .310 for a bore of .304 IIRC. Those privi's have the ogive further forward than larger diameter Hornady's or Speer's. I did recrown that rifle - by cutting off half an inch and chucking it in a lathe.

The "king" bushing has a lot to do with consistency, once it's properly seated and torqued groups will improve!.

Excuse my ignorance but would you elaborate on the "king" bushing?

I have a No4 barreled MLE that shot 1.25 MOA groups with Hornady 150 gr spire points all day long. Ten shot groups. Speer 180 gr RN's too. The powder was MR200 (Musgrave Rifle made by Somchem). I did get better groups with Sierra 150's, 1 MOA.

[Bigslug]

Pics - We have 10-day California Purgatory to contend with. Gonna be a little longer cuz I'm piggybacking a handgun transfer to save fees and won't start it for a few more days. Might get some pics up then - certainly after they come home.

"The bolt-action battle rifle" - Not to horn-toot, but I'm pretty fast with a bolt action, courtesy of a few years spent getting my Expert card in NRA Highpower with a Match Rifle (this was in the early stages of the AR taking over that game, and I was one of the bolt gun / stripper clip holdouts). Now I will have probably the fastest turnbolt made - I think I'm going to see how close I can get to the Mad Minute record.

Bullet selection / Barrel date - It's a post-war gun. . .1949 as I recall. As to the bullet, this is almost one of those amusing bought the rifle because I had a mold stories. I've got a 311331 218 gr clone that casts too fat - especially in the bore ride section - to be happy in the .30-06's I bought it for. Should be happy in these two; if not, I've got an excuse to buy one of NOE's diameter upscaled 311299's.

[303Guy]

Fat and heavy cast boolits seem to align in the bore very well. Even my rifle that puts a bullet skew will align a heavy (240gr) well.

I'm super fast with a Remington 22lr sportmaster. Not so much with my Lee Enfields - I catch each case as they eject.
I had a semi-auto (mini-14). I never fired a rapid second shot. I would pick up each case before taking the next shot.

I have a magazine without spring or follower - I use that on the range as the spent cases fall straight down into it.

Did you know you can use stripper clips in the earlier MLE? Yup, place the clip over the mag and push em in.

[leebuilder]

The king bushing is the bushing between the receiver and trigger guard. To loose (to long) well you don't have to be an engineer to figure out what happens. To tight (to short) it bears on the wood and causes inconsistent groups and will ruin your stock with repeated firing.

The barrel date can be found around the 9 to 11 o'clock position on the barrel shank holding the rifle in normal firing position. Two digit number an 1/8 of an inch in height.
Not all refurbished had a barrel change. 1949 is when they adopted the Mk2 version and modified select mk1 and mk1☆ rifles.
I think with time and trial and terror you can make any boolit fly in the 303, just has to have that crucial rifling engagement and velocity. I recently got a Noe 314125 hp and with 5.5 grs of titegroup its hard to beat. Even used some PCed culls that I had to file the nose to get rid of globbs of PC, still shot 2" groups at 66m with more than ten rounds. In a worn 2 groove and new criterion barrel.

185 Lee and the 314299 are hard to beat they just have to have that minimum diameter.

[303Guy]

Aah yes. The king bush. Thanks.

[Bigslug]

Pics as promised:



Home safe and sound. Went straight from the shop to my Dad's place where the No.4 got it's new 1300Y rear sight (old had no elevation detent clicks) and sight plunger spring (old was a quarter inch too short to tension anything), and the P14 got a stacking swivel and screw (which in retrospect were probably pulled during the same service that removed the volley sights). Both got slings and to the range we raced with two boxes of 180 grain soft point Prvi to generate some dimensioned brass.



100 yard off rest with the P14 with two sight settings - thought I had the flip-peep all the way down at first, but it had a little skosh lower to go.



And the same for the No. 4, which I'm REALLY happy with. This is two corrections on the front sight for windage with the flip-peep one click up from bottomed out.

Brought Dad home where we cleaned and chamber-slugged. Looks like .31375"/.302+ for groove/bore on the No.4 and a bit bigger on the P14. Numbers and brass to be cogitated on more deeply. Hopefully the final determinations will be that same mold/same load is a possibility - got the Redding 3-die set, so plan to neck-size only if feasible.

It looks like the aforementioned mold is not going to work for either, so on to contemplate new molds. Isn't this a fun disease we have?

[303Calgary]

Hi, am new to this group but agree with your preference for the P14. I have a couple Enfields too but just love my Winchester P14!

[Bigslug]

Yes, well, unfortunately rolling the dice on the mismatched bolt on this P14 came up snake eyes. Nothing too heinous to be found with the factory Prvi, but on soft cast loads, we've got primers backing out. I fabbed up a field/reject headspace gauge by shimming the back of an A-Zoom snap cap up to 0.070". It halts bolt closure nicely on the No.4, but gets swallowed by the P14. I still need to add additional shims to that to see just how much I'm missing by, then start to contemplate what's needed in a replacement bolt body. Alternatively, I can study how happy it will be by neck-sizing the once-shot brass.

Meanwhile, the No.4 got a few shims inserted into the stock to bring it back to proper barrel up-pressure, and it looks like it will easily be a sub-2-MOA rifle by the time all is done.

Somewhat stuck on both while NOE gets around to the next run of 314299 and 316299. My somewhat mis-proportioned 311331 actually shows some promise in the No.4, but it's not REALLY what either gun wants.

[303Guy]

Don't get too hung up on the headspace issue with the P14. Lube the loaded cases with something like STP smoke stopper and give them some pressure. The STP will allow the case head to settle back onto the bolt face and set the shoulder forward for proper headspacing on said shoulder. Reload without neck sizing and you will be set. If your boolits are loose in the neck then seat them with paper towel to take up the clearance. I have loaded with just firm lube to hold the boolit in the neck. My lube required melting actually. I cut the paper towel into strips and set them crossways to form a 'paper cup' in the neck.

[nekshot]

Don't get too hung up on the headspace issue with the P14. Lube the loaded cases with something like STP smoke stopper and give them some pressure. The STP will allow the case head to settle back onto the bolt face and set the shoulder forward for proper headspacing on said shoulder. Reload without neck sizing and you will be set. If your boolits are loose in the eck then seat them with paper towel to take up the clearance. I have loaded with just firm lube to hold the boolit in the neck. My lube required melting actually. I cut the paper towel into strips and set them crossways to form a 'paper cup' in the neck.

I totally agree with this for the p14. I would rather shoot and reprime, powder, and then insert boolit by hand and crimp. I have lost count of the loadings I get by doing it this way and same brass. Also that p14 is possibly a total piece of junk and I would gladly deliver you of it. Hey, I'll even pay the postage!

[one-eyed fat man]

Standard .303 Mk VII ball consisted of a 174 grain flat based spitzer with a velocity of 2440 fps, an excellent rifle cartridge. To extend the range of the Vickers machine gun for indirect fire, Mk VIIIz ball was developed. Upping the velocity to 2550 and changing the bullet from a flat base to a long boatail design. As a result the max range of the Vickers went from 3700 yards with Mk VII to 4500 yards with Mk VII.

Of special note is British wartime experience with the barrel erosion characteristics of Mk VII ball and Mk VIII ball. They found that barrels should be used with either one or the other but not with both. This was due to the different wear patterns of the two different cartridges. This gave rise to things, Mk VIIIz was "designated" machine gun only, so of course, rifle were eager to get their hands on it thinking it was "more powerful.' Vickers barrels that had been used with Mk VII ball were to be stamped with a number 7 on the trunnion and not to be used for overhead fire. (I’d hate to know who found that out!)

Where that is of concern today is that none of the bullet makers produce a flat base FMJ bullet. Currently available commercial ammo likewise uses boattail bullets. Any rifle that has shot appreciable amounts of old cordite loaded, flat base bullet Mk VII ball will very often fail to stabilize boattail bullets.

[Outpost75]

Coming late to the party here, but my 2-groove No.4 Mk2 Long Branch likes NOE clone of #314299 cast 13 BHN and sized .316 with 30 grains of either 4064, RL15 or Varget.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

You are correct on the bolt head cocking.
Yes avoid DP marked ones, unless you know what to look for, seen a few sevrvicable rifles marked DP. Some parts were marked DP don't mean the rifles is DPED. There are some many desirable markings to look for but I look at the barrel first.
If the bolt don't match assume you need to check headspace. A full lenght sized casing with a known rim thickness can be geared up with tape or plastigauge to give you and idea of headspace.
Good luck

I'd rather say look very carefully at DP marked rifles, but avoid them on principle only if you are looking for high collector value. Some Lee-Enfields were indeed relegated to drill purpose because they were in an advanced but sometimes not easily detectable state of decrepitude. But what do you do with millions of rifles, some of them superseded models, when nobody is going to be stupid enough to start another major war? I have seen the DP stamp on as sound and usable a Long Lee-Enfield as you could wish to find.

The type of "headspace" that matters most on a Lee-Enfield isn't the genuine article at all, but something very like the headspace (and shoulder diameter) of a rimless rifle. That area of the chamber is often very oversize, and the width mean that neck-sizing only, with standard reloading dies, isn't a complete answer.

It is often said that this was because not being easily jammed by dirt was found to be worth some loss of accuracy on the last big use of the No1 Lee-Enfield. That was probably part of it but I think it was partly the same reason as oversize bores cut with a broach. Reamers and broaches alike may have started out oversize, to stand the maximum number of resharpenings.

I'm fairly sure that the oversize groove diameters, at least, reverse the natural order of things in war emergency production, by being more common in early rifles.

There is, however, a late wartime barrel which is made of drawn tubing shrink-fitted and pinned into a threaded stub. These very occasionally loosen, although I have never heard of an accident resulting.

Yes, it is a pity about flat-based bullets not being available. There used to be a rifle kept, at Enfield I believe, for testing single-base powder, and it nonetheless became eroded to an extent few of us would think worth shooting. I disremember the gauge figures, ut they were remarkable. It nonetheless gave quite presentable groups as long as flat based, thin jacketed bullets were used. I think you could go a bit the same way with barrels that were just a little bit worn.

The battle rifle, I think, ought to be the No1 SMLE. Or if you want the only war in history when the rifle truly was the dominant weapon, the Long Lee-Enfield.