School Me on Picking A No. 4

[Bigslug]

I may get an opportunity to purchase a No. 4 SMLE after getting to cherry pick my way through a batch of about a dozen my LGS is hoping will be available. Hoping for some guidance on the finer points of selection and rejection. Other than bore condition and matching of numbers, they've never hugely been my thing.

I was able to quickly identify at least one MKII among the MKI's. Any reason for preference there?

There's also a fairly clean Eddystone P14 among the batch. Missing the volley sight, but otherwise OK at quick inspection. Pretty sure I wouldn't have to sweat the stretching of headspace on that beast. . .

[higgins]

See if the seller will let you at least run a bronze brush through the bore and then examine it from the breech when dry. Most Enfields were fired by their American owners with corrosive surplus ammo, and they were rarely properly cleaned unless the owner was a surplus rifle fan who knew how to clean up chlorate-primed ammo. I know this comes under bore condition, of which you're already aware, but some sizeable pits can hide under either a coat of oil or loose fouling.

The Mk2 may have a bit of a better trigger pull because the trigger is hung from the action instead of the triggerguard plate. One marked FTR has been through Factory Thorough Repair (arsenal rebuild), so any worn parts including the barrel would have been replaced. Some purists aren't excited about FTR rifles because they've got mixed parts but for a shooter think of it as a rifle that could have less wear that a non-FTR.

[Bigslug]

I'm pretty tight with the shop owner; the plan is actually for me to hang out and get all the bores punched out, make sure any numbered magazines are moved around to match the receivers if that's possible, and generally get them ready to sell if indeed that comes to pass. Probably make him a few more bucks and get me the cream of the lot.

Good intel on the FTR stamp, and good intel on the MKII trigger. This will be a cast bullet projector, so that which makes for a better shooter is worth taking note of.

I may have the facts jumbled, but am I correct in that a MKII* (aka MKII "star") is a rifle that started life as a MKI and got converted?

[303Guy]

For cast you probably should be looking at a five-groove.

[Bloodman14]

I think the conversions were numbered differently; Number 4 Mk1/2, Mk2/3, etc. I can't find my Small Arms guide by Skennerton right now.

[leebuilder]

No4mk1 was the original production version, all plants
No4mk1* was the savage and long branch production.
No4mk2 was the improved version
No4mk1/2 was the British up grade mk1 to Mk2
No4mk1/3 was the savage and long branch upgrade to Mk2, ie breech mounted trigger.
I like ftrs for shooting but for collecting you want original all matching numbers.
I look for bore condition, crown and chamber, bullet test crown and chamber no pits and should look clean and smooth.
Headspace, should be tight and not exceed 0.067, I know it can go out farther but if you want a shot er this is the benchmark headspace.
Drilled and tapped, chipped rail, sights, bedding and a good look under the handguards.
The wood should match the rifle ie British wood on a British made or British ftr'ed rifle. Wood should match in colour. The trigger should be 2 stage and not springy. Bolt should match and void of scratches and the bolt head not clock more than 15 degrees past.
Bolt track not chipped.
If the charger guide is welded or not, not probably original, welded it was ftr'ed.
Theses are a few points I look for when someone want top dollar for a 303.
Be well

[Bigslug]

Leebuilder - many thanks!

"Bolt head should not clock more than 15 degrees past. . ." Am I correct in assuming you mean it should bottom out on its threads less than 15 degrees past its orientation in the action-closed position?

Headspace. . .probably going to be a roll of the dice, me being gaugeless and all.

Going to try to go back this afternoon - certainly by the weekend - to ply this new knowledge on them. They give off an FTR sort of vibe - wood looking like it might have gotten a sanding or a new coat of varnish, but maybe more with a factory, mass-produce attitude than that of restoring a classic car. To be continued. . .

[higgins]

Avoid a rifle marked DP on the metal or wood, but particularly on the metal. That's "Drill Purpose", a rifle unsuitable for some reason for firing ball ammo. The one's I've seen (mostly photographs) are prominently marked. Of course it's possible that DP-marked furniture was placed on a non-DP barreled action.

If the furniture has indeed been sanded and varnished that detracts greatly from value as a collector piece. If you can't read the tiny marks in the wood, or if they're gone altogether, you'll know it's been sanded. If you're wanting a shooter and not overly concerned with having a "proper" Enfield, it's still a good legitimate reason to reduce the price. Deciphering the markings on British and other European rifles is very interesting, and a study in itself. If you read the surplus rifle sites you will find much debate over some markings.

[leebuilder]

You are correct on the bolt head cocking.
Yes avoid DP marked ones, unless you know what to look for, seen a few sevrvicable rifles marked DP. Some parts were marked DP don't mean the rifles is DPED. There are some many desirable markings to look for but I look at the barrel first.
If the bolt don't match assume you need to check headspace. A full lenght sized casing with a known rim thickness can be geared up with tape or plastigauge to give you and idea of headspace.
Good luck

[Texas by God]

I'd be looking at the P14 first, then the no.4's. But that's just me.

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[Hardcast416taylor]

I also would look more favorably at the P 14 than the Lee`s. The P 14 is a much stronger action of the Mauser heritage. It also lends itself for possible future making into a rifle of a different cartridge family. In years passed I looked for both P 14 & 17 rifles that some well meaning `BUBBA` had cut up for his sporter. I was basically after the action anyways. The Lee`s are what they are and only a lot of work can make them otherwise.Robert

[Bigslug]

Went back today and started digging deeper. Most of what's there seemed to be marked No. 4 MKI (F) or No. 4 MKII (F). Any idea what the parentheses F is all about?

I was able to come up with three that are decent bores, matching bolts, and 1-marked bolt heads. Two of those I was able to match the magazine up on. Nothing to generate serious mouth-foam over, but we'll see what they price at.

And yep, priority is on the P14. Mismatched bolt, but I'd be willing to roll the dice on that.

[samari46]

Think the F stands for the place where the rifle was made Fazakerly not sure about the spelling. Get the P14 first as it is a strong action and better suited for both cast and j word bullets. I do have a 1949 Faz plus a Parker Hale sporter on a Long Branch action. And a cut down model of 1917 Winchester in 30-06. Have fun as that is what it is all about. Frank

[Bloodman14]

Yes, the (F) means Fazakerly made, an arsenal around Liverpool, I believe. Still can't find that book.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The easy way to check the headspace is to take a fired cartridge measure the overall length of the case, and then push the primer part way out.

Then you close the bolt on the case which pushes the primer back in and takes all the slop out. The primer will be sticking out a little so you measure how much by measuring the OAL again, note the difference, and add it to the thickness of the rim and you've got the headspace number.

This is a simple and accurate method of checking headspace. Since the cartridge headspaces on the rim you can cut a cartridge case off in front of the case web so you don't have to contend with varying chamber profiles, and make an inexpensive Headspace gage..

Randy

[Texas by God]

That's a great idea and one I will borrow, Mr. WRB. Beats cutting shim stock!

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[samari46]

Hey, for once I got the spelling right on Fazakerly that doesn't happen that often. Kinda gave up on finding a mint condition Long branch later model which is why I got a good deal on the Parker Hale #4MKI* two groove barrel. Still can't find my Skennerton book on the Lee Enfield. Need to reorganize my library. Frank

[gwpercle]

Look for one made at the BSA arsenal , Birmingham Small Arms , these are exceptionally well made.
Mine is marked on the wrist socket: O (that's capital letter O, not the number zero)
1942
No. 490
The bore measures .303 , each groove is .004 deep for a total of .311 . A .312 boolit shots like a dream as does factory ammo. I later found out the BSA's were known for being well made. I thought the capital O was a zero , but later found out it's a designation for BSA , these rifles were not made in huge numbers and desirable for being well machined and having close tolerances.
Look for one in good shape. Mine appeared unissued or at least very well taken care of.
Gary

[EO1]

The MK2s were made in the late 40s until 55 and are usually the better made since they were not of wartime production. Coin type headspace gauges are cheap.

[Greg B.]

I have a No. 4 Mk 1 made by Long Branch in 1943. Paid $25.00 back in 68 and this was about $10.00 too much. There is a lot of good information on this tread and I can add a few minor points based on experience. If you get one of these rifles clean the grease out of it. The first winter hunt I went on I decided to take a shot after we were through for the day. Pulled the trigger and nothing happened. Worked fine in the summer but the grease had gummed up the bolt in the winter.

Concerning head space there a number of different sized bolt heads you can still find that will alter the head space and they are easy to install.

Sites on the No. 4 are typically the two position flip up for 300(?) and 600 yards. The ladder peep site is a much better proposition and is also a bolt on replacement. Some came with this site although I was fortunate to have the LGS give me one. I also replaced the front site with the tallest one I could find. Another bolt on part that cost $2.00 at a gun show years ago.

In order to get this thing to hit a a 10" or 12" bulls eye at 100 yards an appropriate jacketed load had to be used. One of the locals suggested a 150 grain bullet at 2500 fps. Found one in my old Number 9 Speer Manual. Not the most accurate (all right I'me a lousey shot) but it works.

Concerning cast boolits if you get a No. 4 with 5 lands and groves you will have fun slugging the barrel or rather measuring the results as there will be a land on one side and a groove on the other. It can be done using a set of "V" blocks but I don't know how. Myself I am going to use a a cast bullet and load listed in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and hope for the best.

Good Luck.