RCBS 35-200-FN, how fast for deer?

[Distant Thunder]

I have shot a few critters with my .50-70 loaded with black powder to a whopping 1200 fps. The boolits were cast of 20:1 and were a semi-pointed design. The longest shot was an antelope at 190 yards and the closest was a whitetail buck at 20 yards. Every one dropped very quickly and in sight.

The only exception was my buffalo which required more than one shot. I was told to shoot him in the neck and there is a lot of neck on a buffalo than isn't really going to put them on the ground when hit. After knocking him down and having him get back up I said the heck with this and put one just behind his ear, that worked well and the skull was just fine. The .50-70 is not a .300 magnum and kills differently, they didn't seem to understand that.

I had to move away from the Sharps single shot to something more fitting for the scope that my eye now require. I miss hunting with my .50 Sharps, but I like my leverguns too.

I enjoy the whole process of hunting with cast boolits and don't care to use jacketed anymore. I enjoy casting and developing a boolit/load that works well and kills cleanly. The only one that was given me cause for concern is that one buck I shot with the WFN in my .45-70. I probably worry about that one incident more than I need to. I continue to feel that some expansion is a good thing. The .35 Remington gives me an ideal opportunity to test that idea. It can easily be loaded to a velocity that should give reliable expansion out 150 yards and a bit beyond. A .35 caliber 200 grain boolit at 1800 to 2000 fps has very manageable recoil and is perfect for deer at the woods ranges common where I hunt.

I do appreciate all the input you guys have given me. I've got plenty of time until deer season to work with this cartridge and give it a thorough testing to make sure I'm ready this fall.

Any specific details on loads, alloy, fps, and deer (hogs) killed with the .35 Rem. and cast boolits will be equally appreciated.

[brewer12345]

Dt, the 35 is a traditional cartridge for east coast deer hunters. My rifle is a 1958 marlin that was dad's. From the time he was 18 until his 50s, this rifle was used.for dozens of deer albeit with jacketed. I don't know how many deer since dad liked his game fried, baked, boiled or roasted, but always poached, as the saying goes.

[GooseGestapo]

My favorite load with the 200gr RCBS .358” is 39.0 BLC2.
I size to .360” and use Hornady gas checks and SPG lube.
Runs 2,050 fps and gets ~ 2-3moa accuracy.
Mine actually casts to 218gr.
It’s so good, I don’t use jacketed bullets in the .35Rem anymore.

I’ve only killed one deer with this load, but it worked splendidly. About like a Hornady 200gr Spt RN.

added: I’m using 50/50 w/w and pure lead. Bhn about 12 using Lee hardness tester.

[Edward]

Get a hardness tester otherwise your guessing ,my 60"s vintage 336A using that boolit BHN 11 @ 167 ranged yds @ 200-2050 FPS punched thru behind shoulder and exited thru off shoulder .The off shoulder had a hole you could throw a soft ball threw with bone splinters .This year I will shoot the same boolit and bump it up to 14-15 BHN and slow it down to 17-1800 FPS

[William Yanda]

I see two issues here, speed and alloy. In a hunting bullet the goal is mushrooming to maximize killing effect. This is complicated by the twins of softness and toughness. Toughness is the goal of those experimenting with copper. Have you read the LASC treatise on alloys?

[Distant Thunder]

Edward,

Excellent info! That tells me the sort of details that gives me some guide lines for my .35 Rem. load.

I plan to spend a good deal of time testing expansion during the summer once things warm up around here. I do have a LBT hardness tester and use it religiously. I have not checked the hardness of my 17:1 alloy, it is just where I'm starting. It is not mixed with expansion in mind, it is intended to resist nose slumping on some rather long nosed bullets I shoot in competition. It has a low antimony % and should hold together very well. If I find, as you did, that I need to harden it to prevent "over expansion" I will do so. I believe I can raise the antimony to 2-3% before it starts to become brittle and risks breaking up rather than expanding. I can also add more tin if needed. In time I'll have that all worked out. Right now I'm looking for a load that will give me 2 moa or better over a 1700-2000 fps velocity range so I have room to fine tune my impact velocity over 150 yards that is typical in my woods.

I'm not as concerned as some people are about the size of the exit hole or some loss of meat. What I AM concerned about is putting the deer down within 50 yards or less of where it was shot, having it stay down once there, and getting that second hole (exit) so there is a good blood trail. I would gladly trade a few pounds of venison for not having to track the critter over a long distance and then shoot it again to accomplish what the first shot should have done if reasonably well placed. Again, tracking was never needed with my .358 Winchester and a 250 grain jacketed bullet and most were DRT. The .35 Remington with the right boolit and load should be capable of the same thing and I get to hunt with a fine old levergun! What's not to like!

Thanks again for sharing the details of your load and it's results in the field.

[35remington]

Bhn 12 alloys that approximate wheelweights will show some amount of upset down to around 1350 fps impact velocity.

The correct answer is the fastest you can push it with sufficient accuracy at the longest range you will use it. To ensure utility at your hoped for range, higher velocity with at least reasonable accuracy at that range verified through actual testing is needed. Exact sized diameter as long as it exceeds groove diameter is less important than ensuring there is not too much slop between bore diameter (as the term is correctly rather than all too frequently erroneously used) and the supposedly bore riding nose of the bullet.

The RCBS variant shoots well at 16-1800 fps speeds and sufficiently well at 2050 fps speeds. I do not consider 1600 fps loads to be 150 yard capable. The 2050 fps loads are if your gun will shoot them.

Consider RL7 to be slightly slower 4198. About 31 grains is max for this bullet weight in terms of any kind of reasonable accuracy. There are better powder choices in my opinion, among them 3031. Exact powder used is not as critical as I used to think it was.

That opinion changed the more powders I shot. Many will serve.

For example, 3031, 4895, 4064 and 4320 will all work. So did a lot of others. I do not believe in magic load combinations as I have never found any despite much looking. I just found any number that were good enough. Higher speeds are always harder to get to group than slower, but since we are talking about what are really modest ranges good enough is just that.

I rather favor quicker kills and more tissue damage myself and velocity sees to that.

Temper accuracy expectations after a realistic appraisal of actual rifle potential. That usually involves discounting much of what you read on the internet.

[35remington]

And one more thing:

IMO anyone who talks about how most of his deer are “DRT” from vital tissue only shots that do not impact the CNS, well, hasn’t shot many deer.

I have, with a lot of widely different guns. Shoot them well as described and they run a short distance and keel over. Expecting more than this on every shot is unrealistic.

[quilbilly]

I think in terms of terminal velocity at the farthest range you intend to shoot at a deer (and still be accurate, of course). With that boolit, a terminal velocity of 950 fps will do anything you want it to do for deer. High velocity is overrated with cast lead boolits. There is no reason to beat yourself up with heavy recoil if you don't need to plus the rifle will be more fun to shoot in the off season. If you think that a bear might be on the menu, a higher terminal velocity is in order. Obviously, what I just wrote would be considered heresy in some circles but I come from the perspective of being a muzzleloader deer hunter who thinks that a 132 gr PRB at a terminal velocity of 1000 fps is just right for deer.

[jmort]

I think in terms of terminal velocity at the farthest range you intend to shoot at a deer (and still be accurate, of course). With that boolit, a terminal velocity of 950 fps will do anything you want it to do for deer. High velocity is overrated with cast lead boolits. There is no reason to beat yourself up with heavy recoil if you don't need to plus the rifle will be more fun to shoot in the off season. If you think that a bear might be on the menu, a higher terminal velocity is in order. Obviously, what I just wrote would be considered heresy in some circles but I come from the perspective of being a muzzleloader deer hunter who thinks that a 132 gr PRB at a terminal velocity of 1000 fps is just right for deer.

Thank God to see someone else with some common sense

[Mop]

I'm @ 41.5 grains of LeverEvolution powder with Lee's 200 grain RCBS clone and good accuracy. I started at 36 and had sooty necks (my limited understanding was there was insufficient power to seal the chamber), got consistently better accuracy till I hit 41 gr. and best at 41.5. Over that was no improvement and 43 was going the other way. The Lee mold drops smaller diameter than I'd like so I think I'm in the ball park of the best I can do with this mold. I don't have any idea of velocity as I don't have a chrony, but it should be doing pretty good.

I have shot 2 deer with this load, thru the chest behind the shoulder. One was a doe @ 80-100 yards that ran maybe 20 yards.

The other was a buck chasing a doe @ about 40 yards. The buck however ran the 40 yards straight to me, made a circle right below me, blood coming out both sides, and laid down. I thought he was done so I let my hammer down, when he jumps up, runs under my tree and into the thicket behind me. I take my time coming down the tree, ease into the thicket only to find him laying down, looking around about 35 yards in. As he's gotten close to our property, I want him NOT to run any more and the only shot I have is a chest shot thru the thicket which seems to put him out. When I get to him he turns and looks my way so another to his neck is in order.
This kill still haunts my memories as this is not the norm. I shoot for the lungs/ heart area behind the shoulder. Some run more than others but this is one, I don't know what was going on to allow him to live as long as he did. Some chalk it up to testosterone. Who knows? But it still haunts me.

I shot a nice buck chasing a doe @ 35 yards this year with a Remington Corelock and he was down in less than 30 yards. Go figure.

[500Linebaughbuck]

I'm @ 41.5 grains of LeverEvolution powder with Lee's 200 grain RCBS clone and good accuracy. I started at 36 and had sooty necks (my limited understanding was there was insufficient power to seal the chamber), got consistently better accuracy till I hit 41 gr. and best at 41.5. Over that was no improvement and 43 was going the other way. The Lee mold drops smaller diameter than I'd like so I think I'm in the ball park of the best I can do with this mold. I don't have any idea of velocity as I don't have a chrony, but it should be doing pretty good.

I have shot 2 deer with this load, thru the chest behind the shoulder. One was a doe @ 80-100 yards that ran maybe 20 yards.

The other was a buck chasing a doe @ about 40 yards. The buck however ran the 40 yards straight to me, made a circle right below me, blood coming out both sides, and laid down. I thought he was done so I let my hammer down, when he jumps up, runs under my tree and into the thicket behind me. I take my time coming down the tree, ease into the thicket only to find him laying down, looking around about 35 yards in. As he's gotten close to our property, I want him NOT to run any more and the only shot I have is a chest shot thru the thicket which seems to put him out. When I get to him he turns and looks my way so another to his neck is in order.
This kill still haunts my memories as this is not the norm. I shoot for the lungs/ heart area behind the shoulder. Some run more than others but this is one, I don't know what was going on to allow him to live as long as he did. Some chalk it up to testosterone. Who knows? But it still haunts me.

I shot a nice buck chasing a doe @ 35 yards this year with a Remington Corelock and he was down in less than 30 yards. Go figure.

the buck was full of adrenaline. it don't matter if you use a 460 weatherby mag, its gonna run. my son shot a 5pt that was trailing a doe. he ran about 130-140 yards before my son caught up to him. the buck was still breathing so my son "throat cut" him. it is difficult to take the knife and put it up against his throat(deer hair is strong). so you are better off to "throat cut" him. take the knife and plunge it into the neck(about the spine) and cut it to the outside of the deer.(a reverse "Colombian" neck-tie)

since i've been using cast boolits, about 7 or 8 years, every deer has been drt. jacketed bullets was 50% drt/50% run about 40+/- or so yards.

[Djones]

I'm @ 41.5 grains of LeverEvolution powder with Lee's 200 grain RCBS clone and good accuracy. I started at 36 and had sooty necks (my limited understanding was there was insufficient power to seal the chamber), got consistently better accuracy till I hit 41 gr. and best at 41.5. Over that was no improvement and 43 was going the other way. The Lee mold drops smaller diameter than I'd like so I think I'm in the ball park of the best I can do with this mold. I don't have any idea of velocity as I don't have a chrony, but it should be doing pretty good.

I have shot 2 deer with this load, thru the chest behind the shoulder. One was a doe @ 80-100 yards that ran maybe 20 yards.

The other was a buck chasing a doe @ about 40 yards. The buck however ran the 40 yards straight to me, made a circle right below me, blood coming out both sides, and laid down. I thought he was done so I let my hammer down, when he jumps up, runs under my tree and into the thicket behind me. I take my time coming down the tree, ease into the thicket only to find him laying down, looking around about 35 yards in. As he's gotten close to our property, I want him NOT to run any more and the only shot I have is a chest shot thru the thicket which seems to put him out. When I get to him he turns and looks my way so another to his neck is in order.
This kill still haunts my memories as this is not the norm. I shoot for the lungs/ heart area behind the shoulder. Some run more than others but this is one, I don't know what was going on to allow him to live as long as he did. Some chalk it up to testosterone. Who knows? But it still haunts me.

I shot a nice buck chasing a doe @ 35 yards this year with a Remington Corelock and he was down in less than 30 yards. Go figure.

I had a similar experience with a rutting buck chasing a doe. Shot him perfect double lung. Then 30 minutes later another 4 times all with 375 win 250 grain slugs going ~1800 fps. Spine shot just above the shoulders finally put him down.

Leverevolution is worth trying in the 35 Rem with 35-200 bullet. I may try a mag primer on a small batch just to see if it can even get any better.

[Mop]

I had a similar experience with a rutting buck chasing a doe. Shot him perfect double lung. Then 30 minutes later another 4 times all with 375 win 250 grain slugs going ~1800 fps. Spine shot just above the shoulders finally put him down.

Leverevolution is worth trying in the 35 Rem with 35-200 bullet. I may try a mag primer on a small batch just to see if it can even get any better.

Yeah I'm liking the LeverEvolution powder for that bullet. Gonna try it with some J. bullets soon. Got a new 35 Remington to load for.

[Edward]

Get a hardness tester otherwise your guessing ,my 60"s vintage 336A using that boolit BHN 11 @ 167 ranged yds @ 200-2050 FPS punched thru behind shoulder and exited thru off shoulder .The off shoulder had a hole you could throw a soft ball threw with bone splinters .This year I will shoot the same boolit and bump it up to 14-15 BHN and slow it down to 17-1800 FPS

Guess I should mention The powder involved was 2400 with 1/2 grain dacron and a lifetime (several) supply of cast/PCed/checked boolits ,unfortunately been bit by blackpowder bug

[quilbilly]

Guess I should mention The powder involved was 2400 with 1/2 grain dacron and a lifetime (several) supply of cast/PCed/checked boolits ,unfortunately been bit by blackpowder bug

You shouldn't need that dacron with 2400. My 308's certainly don't require it. Blackpowder bug? Cartridge or muzzleloader?

[Edward]

You shouldn't need that dacron with 2400. My 308's certainly don't require it. Blackpowder bug? Cartridge or muzzleloader?

Dacron absolutely makes a difference in groups/SD s ,read Larry Gibsons sticky on when and when not to use it . A long discussion on dacron backed up by facts /testing and not left out his opinion /word ! (I am a believer) as far as Black powder ,side locks /underhammers rock locks and what takes up way to much resource/time /most times (daily) loading for my C Sharps , can walk to my 200 yd (short) and my (mule)kawasaki makes it 1/2 mile to the 750 yd long range . retired is good /Ed

[500Linebaughbuck]

Dacron absolutely makes a difference in groups/SD s ,read Larry Gibsons sticky on when and when not to use it . A long discussion on dacron backed up by facts /testing and not left out his opinion /word ! (I am a believer) as far as Black powder ,side locks /underhammers rock locks and what takes up way to much resource/time /most times (daily) loading for my C Sharps , can walk to my 200 yd (short) and my (mule)kawasaki makes it 1/2 mile to the 750 yd long range . retired is good /Ed

i agree completly!!!!

[selmerfan]

I'm using a similar bullet (Ranch Dog 359-190-RFGC) in the .357 Max from an 18" MGM Encore barrel. I've been shooting Iowa whitetails with it for more than a few years. I have yet to "catch" a bullet in a deer - including the one I shot in January that entered the onside hip and exited the offside shoulder on a severely quartering-away shot. I'm using a homemade Lyman #2 approximation. Velocity is 1950 fps. I've killed them from 25 yards to 172 yards. I wouldn't hesitate for a second on a 200 yard shot at a standing deer. You can probably get lightly more velocity from the .35 Remington, for which this bullet is specifically designed for use in the Marlin 336.

[Lucky Joe]

This is an excellent read, thank you to all the posters. I have the Lyman 358629 that casts an excellent .359, 214 gr. boolit. I was hoping to see this boolit refered to here. I recently acquired a 1990 Marlin in the .35 Rem. and was going to use this cast boolit. Haven't done anything with it yet because of the cold weather. Why does this Lyman boolit not seem so popular? Thanks