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Thread: RCBS 35-200-FN, how fast for deer?

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
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    RCBS 35-200-FN, how fast for deer?

    I'm working with a new to me 336 in .35 Remington and would appreciate any useful information from those of you who have been there done that.

    I'm not sure where I will end up with my alloy, but I've started with 17:1 with just a pinch of antimony to give me a bullet that should expand and still hold together well.

    The 35-200 comes out of my mold at 210+ grains and .3595-ish diameter. That diameter is working fine in my .3575 micro groove diameter. Lubed and checked it is in the 215 grain range.

    My question is, how fast is fast enough to push this bullet so it will give reliable kills on whitetail deer with well placed shots out to 150-ish yards. Keeping in mind that most shots will likely be 40 yards or closer.

    Since this is supposed to be THE bullet for the Marlins I was wondering what kind of accuracy I should expect with this combo?

    So far I have been working with IMR 3031 & 4895, but I haven't seen anything accuracy wise that got me excited.

    Thanks for your comments.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    I have used both the RCBS 35-200 and the NOE 36-230 for whitetail. Two years ago I used the 35-200 at about 1850 fps. At 70 yards it punched straight thru the ribs and she ran about 150 yards. This year I used the NOE,which has a larger meplate, at a similar velocity to take a buck, at 100yards. Again I punched thru the ribs, he only took a few steps before collapsing. I think my alloy is about 11 bhn. I like the -NOE mediate, but my follow up bullet is the RCBS, because it feeds in my Savage. I have the set up to hollow point them, but haven't tried it yet. Hc18flyer

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    I like the larger meplat of the NOE.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master brewer12345's Avatar
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    I am working with the same boolits out of a 1958 microgroove 336. Cast out of coww and a few percent added tin, I got up to 27 grains of 4198 and perhaps 1750 fps. I had the start of promising results with 27.5 grains, but I did not lube the boolits enough and had some leading. I plan to add more lube to the remaining boolits in the batch and try again. I am hoping to get to 1800 fps or around 28 grains. A ballistic calculator suggests that it will give me an honest 125 yard deer load. If I expect to need more like 200 yards, I will take the 3006 as even with jacketed the 35 really isn't more than a 150 yards proposition.
    "I have learned from experience that a modicum of snuff can be most efficacious." - the Baron von Munchausen

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    I think I would pass on shots over 150 yards. I have taken 35 or so whitetails with a .50 cal Great Plains, maybe 1300fps? I don't see the need for speed, but I would like to get some expansion? I hunt mostly for meat, only took the buck because it was the last weekend. Opening morning he stood 25 yards from my stand, I hoped one of the youngsters hunting our farm could take him? hc18flyer

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    I have the same bullet mold I size for 9mm's. Anything from 1500 fps and up is more than enough for any deer in the US. As far as bullet drop at 150 yards, learn your rifle and load and it becomes a non-issue.
    "In general, the art of government is to take as much money as possible from one class of citizens and give it to another class of citizens" Voltaire'

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  7. #7
    Boolit Man gunarea's Avatar
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    Hey Distant Thunder
    Not really sure how helpful my information will be. The Marlin 336 of mine is a 1971 vintage and is most accurate with the RCBS 200gr sized to .360". Most any propellant gave acceptable accuracy. Although slightly embarrassing, my loads are still being put together with IMR 3031 propellant bought in the early seventies. Down here in central Florida, deer are smaller than what is found in most of North America and the big RCBS slug kinda mangles them. But for our feral hogs it is the snizzle. Long range shots are few and far between in our flat brushy forests so that kind of accuracy isn't pursued. That said, the Marlin and the RCBS is an excellent brush combination. At 1500fps, hogs drop dead. No scope on my rifle and shots are always less than 100yds. I am a champion handgun shooter, the RCBS/Marlin combination exceeds my long gun abilities. Tune your loads and I am confident the results will be more than adequate. Best of skill to you.
    Roy
    Shoot often, Shoot well.

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
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    Thanks to those that replied so far.

    I suppose I could have asked the question another way. How fast is too fast?

    I've shot somewhere over 40 deer in the in the past 37 years, most with jacketed bullets. I found that even with jacketed high velocity was really needed. Most hunter in my area are carrying a bolt action chambered in something that will push a .30 caliber or smaller bullet at something well over 3000 fps. That speed may be useful when your average shot is 300 yards, but when it's 30 yards I just don't see the need. So I always loaded for my rifles with heavy for the caliber bullets at no more than 2600 fps. If the rifle is over .40 caliber then I shift to lighter for the caliber bullets to keep the recoil down. A .416 bullet at 2400 fps will set you back a step or two! I am not a big guy.

    Moving away from jacketed to cast I pretty much have followed the same lines. I've killed whitetail deer, antelope, and a buffalo with cast bullets. These days I chase the whitetails mostly.

    My cast bullet hunting for them over the past few years has been with leverguns, the two seem to go together for me. I started with a .30-30 pushing a cast 180 grain flat point at 1850 fps and that work very well on two critters. One was a small buck shot broadside through the shoulders, he dropped where he stood at 30 yards and never moved. The other was a coyote at 30 yards shot behind the shoulders broadside and he ran maybe 30-40 yards and expired. Limited sample but very good results.

    Then, because I like calibers over .30, I used my .45-70 with a 350 grain RD FN at 1590 fps. The one buck I shot with that was at 60-70 yards and quartering away. The bullet hit just into the ribs, angled through the rear of his right lung, over his heart, through the front part of his left lung and stopped under the hind after breaking his left shoulder. The results were immediate and dramatic. He rear up and fell over backwards, tumbling off the hill side he was on landing behind a clump of trees where he laid....... for about 2-3 minutes. Much to my shock he got up, looked around and trotted back in the general detection he had come from. I put a second round into him, but that one raked his left side and totally blew up what remained of his left shoulder. He did not go down and disappeared into the swamp.

    I tracked him with a good blood trail after the second shot for about 80 yards where he laid with his head up. A third shot put an end to a disappointing kill. Again it's a small sample, but not something I wish to repeat.

    Why the .45-70 didn't have better results is hard to say. I could have hit him a few inches lower I suppose and taken out his heart, then he would never have gotten up after the first shot. My .358 Winchester with a 250 grain jacketed bullet at 2300 fps would have ended the whole matter with that same shot placement. That cartridge with that load has been the deadliest combo I have used in all my deer hunting days. So I am fond of .35 caliber.

    Enter my new .35 Remington 336. I want to continue with cast because I know they work and work well and I like making my own boolits. I want to have this rifle work the best that is possible with cast boolits. It's seems that 1500 fps with the 35-200 works, but I'm thinking that's the lower end of a working speed. Where is the upper end? Remember, most of my shots are between 30 feet and 80 yards with the longest at 150 yards. That's one shot in 40+ year of hunting here in northeast Wisconsin that was over 100 yards. I happen to have a buck run across an open field in his escape, one shot from my .30-06 with a 165 grain jacketed bullet at 2600 fps ended his flight. I don't expect to have a shot like that again. I don't sit over fields much, but a shot that far is possible.

    So 1500 fps up to ? The .35 probably isn't capable of too fast maybe? I would be a bit reluctant to go out with less than 1800 fps working for me. Am I wrong in my thinking here? That is why I wanted to hear the experiences of other with the .35 Rem. and really any 200+ grain boolit. Thanks again for thoughts.

    DT

  9. #9
    Boolit Master brewer12345's Avatar
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    How hard was your 45/70 bullet? I wonder if you just had a slightly too hard projectile.

    As for the 35, traditional factory jacketed is not doing much above 2000 and it is only going that fast to get expansion. A softer lead slug should do the trick without issues at a lower velocity. Remember, hunters reliably kill deer with muzzleloader round balls.at modest speeds compared to a.35.
    "I have learned from experience that a modicum of snuff can be most efficacious." - the Baron von Munchausen

  10. #10
    Boolit Master



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    If you get close enough, subsonic would be fun
    Shoot through and through on a broadside
    "Had his shooting been as good as his running, he might have given a better account of himself."
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  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
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    "How hard was your 45/70 bullet? I wonder if you just had a slightly too hard projectile."

    They were 10-11 BHN. The first bullet I recovered under the hide on the left shoulder showed some "upset" but not really expansion and was chewed up pretty bad having broken the shoulder and a couple of ribs. The idea of the WFN is that it doesn't need to expand, right?

    The .30-30 180 grain FN were the same hardness, but I'm sure they expanded some at 1850 fps. My testing before season showed good expansion.

    When I use my .45-70 again it will be with a boolit designed to expand at least some. I'm thinking the 457122 modified to have a shallow cup point, not the factory hollow point. However, I have seen the standard hollow point drop a deer in it's tracks and almost penetrate lengthwise. I would rather have it hold together with a bit less expansion and still penetrate 4 feet of deer. I'm thinking some expansion is a good thing and that seems to need more than 1600 fps.

    DT

  12. #12
    Boolit Master brewer12345's Avatar
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    Hmmm, I think I would chalk that one up to an oddity with the 45/70. When the metal meets the meat, sometimes funny things happen. You had a deer take a huge boolit at some kind of speed and keep going. Impossible? Obviously not, but not what most people would expect. I once shot a rabbit with a 22 short at 35 yards that resulted in the biggest mess I have made of an animal including bad shotgun hits. Entry was 22 sized, exit was the size of a nickel and the critter was a complete mess (including spine broken in two places). Impossible? Obviously not, but very foreign to my experience and I bag at least 50 cottontails a year with everything from .22 short to shotguns of various flavors to centerfire rifles.

    Expansion cannot hurt in the case of the 45/70, but considering that the boolit starts out as big as a lot of jacketed stuff expands to I have to think that at some point you risk blowing up your target.

    Edit to add: Oh yeah. As for the 35 Rem, I am trying to get to 1800 FPS with the boolit in question. I had a lube failure during load testing that I think I have rectified, so I will try my chosen load at the next opportunity, namely 28 grains of 4198. Everything from 26 grains on up has been very accurate in my rifle.
    "I have learned from experience that a modicum of snuff can be most efficacious." - the Baron von Munchausen

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
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    I haven't tried IMR 4198 yet, though it is one of my favorite powders. I like IMR 4895 because the pressure is so low for what it gives in fps. I plan to try IMR 3031 soon too. I am a bit confused on R7 and what charge weights are acceptable in the .35 so I need to look at that one again. None of my manuals seem to list R7 for lead and I see a wide range of max loads for 200 grain jacketed.

    I have an older Lyman mold, #35875, that's casts a plain base boolit of about the same weight as my RCBS mold. I have managed to gas check it but it takes several steps to get that done. With a gas check applied it shoots pretty well at 1900 fps, 5 at 100 yards in 2 1/2 inches ctc. If I can get that from the RCBS boolit I'll be happy and it will be a lot less work to put on the gas check.

    If I do try for expansion with my .45-70 it will be just a bit. I don't need much, but I do believe some would help.

    My son shot a small doe with a 250 grain bullet from his .50 caliber muzzle loader right through the heart broadside. She was just standing there under a cedar tree when we spotted her. At the shot she just took off like a rocket, she ran about 200 yards spraying blood out both sides onto the fresh snow. Very easy to track her. She died on a full run and landed in a brush pile on the other side of the clear cut. Everything else he has shot with that setup was down and dead within 60 yards and most on the spot. So yea, one deer doesn't tell you much about how a bullet will perform normally. I just know I would have all kinds of doubt in my mind if I hunted with that same boolit in my .45-70 again. Even though the same thing might never happen again.

    I am all excited about the .35 Remington now. If I get anything like the performance I always got from my .358 I'll be very happy.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    All of us act on our own experience...why would we not? With 40 cal and 45 cal BPC I've probably killed something around 30 deer and several hogs. Bullets have always been 25:1 and velocities have never exceede about 1250 fps. Of all the deer and few hogs all but one deer and one hog went down and stayed down where they were shot. The hog went about 20 feet before collapsing and the forky mule deer turned around in his tracks before he collapsed. I don't believe there was much, if any, expansion as recovered bullets from various back stops showed absolutely none. I have never recovered either of those bullets from a game animal and a few were shot head on with penetration being complete, end to end. However, I do use heavy for caliber bullets with a large meplat. 410 grs. in the 40-70 and 480 grs. in my 45-90. I've never been one to depend on or desire much expansion or velocity with cast hunting loads.

    Those animals taken with smokeless cartridges and cast bullet have been with loads travelling between 1500 and about 1800 fps with about 1650 being the average with bullets mostly of a Lyman #2 type alloy. Calibers are from 8mm to 9.3mm. Results have been remarkably similar to the BP cartridges. I've never had an animal not go down permanently within my sight and most within very few feet.

    That's my experience and, as probably anyone else would, I trust it. The results have been manifest before my eyes. The cast loads I've used have usually killed quicker than any jacketed load I've used unless the CNS was disrupted. Several deer taken with the classic 270 WCF load, 30-30 WCF and the vaunted -06, (not my kills, observed. I've never taken a head of game with the -06), have all ran off from 20 to 50 yards. That's still good performance but when the distance travelled is cut from 20-50 yards to 20-50 feet...something different is going on....at least in my experience.

    I like what brewer said, impossible, but it happens.
    "In general, the art of government is to take as much money as possible from one class of citizens and give it to another class of citizens" Voltaire'

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  15. #15
    Boolit Master Cheshire Dave's Avatar
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    The first experience I had using lyman's 457 122 was with air-cooled wheel weights and it acted like a partition bullet. I hit a buck at about fifty yards through both shoulders. The nose blew off and the shank traveled through and out the other shoulder. The buck made it about 30 yards. The second book doesn't really count it was an X shot at 25 yards. Dead right there. Both loads were 42 grains of 3031 at about 1600 feet per second.

    Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk

  16. #16
    Boolit Master Cheshire Dave's Avatar
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    Sorry I meant neck shot. **** phone.

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  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    not sure you need to worry about the fps
    what alloy you use will determine how fast you push it
    I would be more concerned about where your chosen alloy
    hits consistently then tweek the speed to where you want
    just me though
    Hit em'hard
    hit em'often

  18. #18
    Boolit Master Djones's Avatar
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    I size mine to 0.361 and push it with 40 grains of Leverevolution. It shoots great!

    alloy is 50/50 COWW/SOWW water dropped. It is a little too hard for quick kills on deer. I need to try soft pointing them.
    The road less traveled ain't for the faint of heart

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy
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    I have no experience with the 35 Rem.....,
    but, I have read a good deal about cast bullets, and hunting deer in that caliber.
    .
    From the pictures and articles I've read, you are on the right track with that bullet.
    I would cast from air cooled WW, use a gas check, and be done with that part of it.

    Go for around 2000 fps, maybe a little more, and as memory serves, 2100 fps/cast bullet is very do-able in that caliber.

    From the pictures I've seen, that cast bullet out to 150 yards, expands like a jacketed bullet, but holds together better.
    .
    .
    Were I to choose a caliber for general cast bullet, ...hunting, the 35 Rem would be at the top of my list. Next down would be a 45/70 shooting a cast hollow point, and behind that would be the 30/30 or 32 Special, both loaded with 180 grain bullets, at just over 2000 fps,

    then limit the shooting distance to 150 yards.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master brewer12345's Avatar
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    Would a tin rich alloy be a good choice for this boolits? Say 15 to 1 or 10 to 1?
    "I have learned from experience that a modicum of snuff can be most efficacious." - the Baron von Munchausen

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check