Hunting alloy questions

[brewer12345]

I know that Lyman says everything should be cast of #2. Mmmm-kay. When I look at #2,it seems kind of hard for what I want hunting boolits to do, namely transfer as much energy as possible to the critter (ideally by expansion), stay in one piece, and punch through both sides. I know a popular alloy here is half COWW, half pure with a percent of tin added. When I put that it an alloy calculator it looks like 1.XX% of each of antimony and tin and a bit over 10 BHN.

I am wondering if it is possible to do better. So for example, if I put 9.5 pounds of pure and half a pound of pewter in the mix I get about the same 10 BHN, a tiny amount of antimony and close to 5% tin. I will assume that this will make a tough boolit that tends to stay together, right? Is this potentially a better choice for a hunting boolit? In the kind of volume I would shoot hunting boolits the additional cost is negligible, especially since I did very well on grubbing up 3 to 4 buck a pound pewter in the last 6 months.

How about a boolit closer to pure? 3% tin? How soft do we want it? Assume max muzzle velocity of 2000 FPS and a gas checked boolit.

I hate to ask stupid questions, but I have been shooting far higher pressure loads with softer (AC COWW plus a few percent pewter) alloys that all the books say shouldn't work, so I am trying to think about hunting alloys with an open mind.

[Larry Gibson]

What muzzle velocity are you intending to get and max range impact velocity?

[brewer12345]

Muzzle would be about 1800 for 35 rem, 2000+ in 3006. 44 I am less concerned with since I think the boolits is big enough without expansion. Max distance would be 125 with the 35 and 44, 200 yards with 3006.

[ammohead]

I cast a 250 gr rcbs sillywet boolit at 14 bhn for my 35 remington. I push them about 1800 fps. I got aprox 16" of penetration in a 200 lb pig head on shot at the bridge of his nose. Good expansion and it weighed 210 gr when I found it in his shoulder loin meat.

[brewer12345]

I cast a 250 gr rcbs sillywet boolit at 14 bhn for my 35 remington. I push them about 1800 fps. I got aprox 16" of penetration in a 200 lb pig head on shot at the bridge of his nose. Good expansion and it weighed 210 gr when I found it in his shoulder loin meat.

What alloy?

[ammohead]

22lbs Monotype and 47 lbs pure lead. This is as scientific as I get. Works for me. I try to not get too wrapped around the axle over %s. I have an LBT hardness tester, so I started with 22 lbs of monotype and added some weighed amount of lead checked for bhn, wrote it down, added some more lead, wrote the bhn down and so on. Maybe there is some magical, mystical % based recipe for the perfect alloy.... pig don't care.

I like your avatar. My motto exactly. And we eat good!

[quilbilly]

An alloy of 60% pure, 40% chilled birdshot (very hard) with a little tin added has given me good accuracy and excellent expansion for years. With patience both have been available at local metal recyclers from time to time. The pure has come mostly from isotope lead (sheeting from X-ray room walls) and most recently from a particular batch of roofing lead. Isotope lead is usually so clean that I will pay a premium for that (90 cents a pound versus 60 cents a pound for dirtier roofing lead). If you know a small independent metal recycler near hospitals in your metro area, get to know them.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

I am thinking about making up a mix of about 80 clipon, 20 pure, and 3pewter (pounds. should be 2%sb 3-3.5%sn) I have a similar mix with 4.5% tin, and shoot it at 1300 ish fps out of my 44mag SBH, and it could stand to be just a little bit softer, thus the 3-3.5% tin, I might go with 2-2.5% tin to get a more balanced sb-sn mix, elders and wise ones, let me know what you think, and good luck to the original poster. by the way, this mix, heat treated, and aged for a min. of a week would do well in you rifles I would think. I have used it in my sks, at probably 1500-1600 ( gas checked) keep us updated!

[Larry Gibson]

I have found the COWW + 2% tin then mixed 50/50 with lead to be an excellent alloy for most of my hunting bullets for deer, pigs and elk. I AC them and lube with Javelina or , now, 2500+. I also HP them with the Forster 1/8" tool to a depth of 3/16". The barrel is cleaned after every 8 shot +/- to maintain best accuracy. I do this with .30 to 375 caliber cast bullets and push then at 2,000 to 2,200 fps. That gives and effective 200 yard range with enough remaining velocity for some expansion. They also hold together at close range impact.

For velocities of 1300 to 1900 fps I have found an alloy of 16-1 (lead-tin) is excellent. However, some bullets don't hold up well in accuracy if the velocity is pushed above 1600 fps, especially if the faster powders are used in some cases.

The "pressure" based formula for determining a max load for cast bullets was disproven a long time ago. The formula is based on a constant value for the tensile strength of lead. As soon as you alloy the lead either as a binary, ternary or even a ternary + copper than tensile strength changes. The formula does not account for that change.

Here is a nice little Texas buck I shot some years back with a 35-200-FN out of my 35 Remington. It was cast of the alloy mentioned above and had a muzzle velocity of 2150 fps. Impact velocity was probably around 1800+ fps. A couple pics of the bullet/loaded rounds and the accuracy; 2 fives shot groups at 100 yards for zero (top target) then up 3 moa and 5 shots at 200 yards (bottom target). Rifle is a rebarreled M91 Argentine Mauser.

1800 fps is probably the practical velocity for that bullet out of a 35 Rem carbine which still gives the 150 yard max range you mention.

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[6pt-sika]

In various asundry leveraction rifles I’ve used straight air cooled wheel weights and in some WW’s water quenched . When I cast slugs for shotguns they are typically half wheel weights and half pure lead . The two sizes of Buckshot I cast are straight wheelweiggts as well .

[brewer12345]

Thanks for all the comments. I see a trend in all the datapoints: maybe a couple percent antimony and 1 to 2% tin. Sounds like "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Larry, does the Forster tool change point of impact or accuracy to any significant degree vs. the unhollowpointed base versions of these rounds?

[Larry Gibson]

...........Larry, does the Forster tool change point of impact or accuracy to any significant degree vs. the unhollowpointed base versions of these rounds?

No. I even use just COWW + 2% tin for my practice bullets because, with the harder alloy, I can shoot them all day w/0 cleaning the barrel as accuracy remains constant. The hunting alloy cast a heavier bullet but HPing them pretty much evens the weight.

POI between the 2 different alloys with same load of 4895 is the same as is the velocity. However, with a different powder there may/may not be a difference. Always best to test to see as there are always exceptions.

[richhodg66]

Larry suggested that same alloy to me when I started this a few years ago and I've taken several deer since using that advice. It works. I've used it in .30s, a .32 Winchester Special, .358 and a .351 WSL.

I want to use it in the 7x57 Mauser eventually. I have a single cavity 287308 that is hollow pointed and weighs about 165 grains lubed and checked. That is getting smallish for cast deer hunting, but I tend to hunt very close and shoot unsuspecting deer. The rifle is plenty accurate enough with that bullet, so it'll probably happen if I don't tag out with muzzle loader or archery first.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

larry g -do you think the 50-50 would lead that bad ( to the point of cleaning every 8 shots) when shot at 44 mag. speeds? ( 1250-1300) maybe 1350?and why don't you use the cleaner shooting alloy for hunting? does it break apart? that was why I was thinking going with 4 parts COWW to 1 part pure then add 2% tin to the finished product, that way, if cowws are still 2.5 sb, it would end up at 2%sb 2%sn, which I have heard balance alloys are the best( thus the success of lyman #2) but there Is also a rule to not have more tin than sb, or is it more sb than tin? do you remember that rrule larry? I was thinking it is better to have more tin, than more sb, but not 100% sure, that's why I am asking...

[Ramjet-SS]

I have found the COWW + 2% tin then mixed 50/50 with lead to be an excellent alloy for most of my hunting bullets for deer, pigs and elk. I AC them and lube with Javelina or , now, 2500+. I also HP them with the Forster 1/8" tool to a depth of 3/16". The barrel is cleaned after every 8 shot +/- to maintain best accuracy. I do this with .30 to 375 caliber cast bullets and push then at 2,000 to 2,200 fps. That gives and effective 200 yard range with enough remaining velocity for some expansion. They also hold together at close range impact.

For velocities of 1300 to 1900 fps I have found an alloy of 16-1 (lead-tin) is excellent. However, some bullets don't hold up well in accuracy if the velocity is pushed above 1600 fps, especially if the faster powders are used in some cases.

The "pressure" based formula for determining a max load for cast bullets was disproven a long time ago. The formula is based on a constant value for the tensile strength of lead. As soon as you alloy the lead either as a binary, ternary or even a ternary + copper than tensile strength changes. The formula does not account for that change.

Here is a nice little Texas buck I shot some years back with a 35-200-FN out of my 35 Remington. It was cast of the alloy mentioned above and had a muzzle velocity of 2150 fps. Impact velocity was probably around 1800+ fps. A couple pics of the bullet/loaded rounds and the accuracy; 2 fives shot groups at 100 yards for zero (top target) then up 3 moa and 5 shots at 200 yards (bottom target). Rifle is a rebarreled M91 Argentine Mauser.

1800 fps is probably the practical velocity for that bullet out of a 35 Rem carbine which still gives the 150 yard max range you mention.

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Larry you have the greatest stuff to hunt with and your load development in all calibers is outstanding. In fact the 30-30 Leverrevelution loads makes my tacti-cool Mossberg Levergun a reall tack driver pushing boolits 2100 FPS with great accuracy and performance.

[Larry Gibson]

Oklahoma Rebel

larry g -do you think the 50-50 would lead that bad ( to the point of cleaning every 8 shots) when shot at 44 mag. speeds? ( 1250-1300) maybe 1350?

I've shot 50 shots w/o cleaning using that hunting alloy out of my 6 1/2" Ruger FTBH using max loads of H110 under the 429244 and the 429640HP (both GC'd) without any "leading" as such. I did get some "graying" but it came out with a normal cleaning. I use BAC lube on those. However, since switching to the 429640HP I use 16-1 alloy almost exclusively with that bullet in the 44 magnum for hunting. I still use COWW + 2% tin for my 429421 Keith bullets with his load of 2400 or with BlueDot. My midrange loads over 8.5 gr Unique are TL430-240-SWCs or Lyman 429360s cast of a range lead mix which runs 9 - 11 BHN.

and why don't you use the cleaner shooting alloy for hunting? does it break apart?

I wanted an alloy for 30/31/8mm cast bullets that allowed expansion down to 1400 fps yet did not break apart or lose too much weight with expansion petals sloughing off at 2000 to 2100 fps. There were several alloys that achieved that but the hunting alloy (COWW + 2% tin/mix 50/50 w/lead) proved to be the easiest to make. My testing was in newsprint wet pack with chronographed velocities of the various levels to simulate ranges from 25 to 200 yards. Control rounds of Winchester 170 gr 30-30 PP factory load were shot into the wet pack. That gave me a standard to compare the expansion and penetration of the various alloyed bullets to. I also found the right depth of HP for consistent expansion. Initial testing was done with the 311041 in the 30-30 and .308W. I then found the hunting alloy also worked quite well in other calibers.

that was why I was thinking going with 4 parts COWW to 1 part pure then add 2% tin to the finished product, that way, if cowws are still 2.5 sb, it would end up at 2%sb 2%sn, which I have heard balance alloys are the best( thus the success of lyman #2) but there Is also a rule to not have more tin than sb, or is it more sb than tin? do you remember that rrule larry? I was thinking it is better to have more tin, than more sb, but not 100% sure, that's why I am asking...

The general rule is; the higher the antimony content than tin the harder and more brittle the alloy will be. The higher the content of tin over antimony the softer the alloy will be and the alloy will not HT as well. A balance of tin to antimony (or a tudge less tin) in percentages up to 5% is an excellent alloy (Lyman #2) but that is a harder than I wanted for normal hunting cast bullets.

Most cast bullets will certainly kill a deer, pig, elk, etc. if the bullet is placed properly. expanding bullets that expand correctly and penetrate most often kill quicker. That is why I wanted softer alloyed cast bullets.....because they most often kill quicker.

[Distant Thunder]

Larry,

I know you have posted about your .35 Remington loads and their results many times in the past and I have read them, but I think it's the addition of the pictures along with your clear explanation that has really brought it home this time. You are clearly doing with your Mauser what I want to do with my 336. I agree with your use of hollow point boolits for expansion and their results on deer sized critters. For my rifle and hunting situation I think the 16:1 at about 1700 to 1900 fps is the way to go and what I've been working toward.

Thank you for your excellent contributions to the efforts of others wanting to hunt deer with the .35 Remington and cast boolits.

DT

[Oklahoma Rebel]

larry, I've never hadf a more thorough answer to my questions! I agree with the op that somewhere around 2-2-96 is the way to go for hunting, at least till you get to high velocities. thanks!

[500Linebaughbuck]

my best rifle deer loads is a coww and a smidge of tin(i never measured it but its like 1 - 2% tin 98 - 99% coww). i don't go above 1800fps (30-40 krag, 30-30,308,'06...) and 1500-1800fps(444 marlin). revolver loads is soww and a smidge of tin or lyman #2.

i do have 500L in 460lfn gc that is 22bhn(montana bullet works) but i have yet to blood it.

i've bought a 45-70 handi-rifle but i haven't shot it. but i used to own marlin m1895 in 45-70 that used a 405gr fn that was coww plus a smidge of tin. it would go 1400fps.

i have a ton of pure lead, when my coww runs out, i'll be using 20 to 1 alloy(rifle and pistol) and 40 to 1 alloy(revolver).


i've been shooting my 30-40 krag for about 8 - 9 years and the barrel has never been cleaned. the 444 is about 3-4 years and the barrel hasn't been cleaned. my 44 mag revolver barrel has been cleaned, about twice a year. i think its because of my loads, 44 spl and 429421 (soww and tin).

[largom]

For my 300 Sav., 30-30, 308, 30-06, 35 Rem., 8mm, and 45-70 I use the same alloy as Larry Gibson but do not hollow point my boolits. Have never lost a deer and
none moved more than 30 yds. after being shot.
Larry