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Thread: 54cal Lee REAL kicks like a mule!

  1. #21
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by mooman76 View Post
    This is what I was thinking. You are shooting a good stout load though. 85g or 777 is the approximate equivalent to 100g of regular powder. Also maybe you were holding your rifle slightly different. You might want to try BlackMZ. I haven't tried it yet but hear good things about it.
    So, solve the hang fire problem first, which is the bigger issue anyway obviously. This was really frustrating for me because hang fires have always been very very rare in this rifle with round balls, GPs, and Maxi Balls. I'll do some experimenting either tomorrow or next week. I may also check out the Black MZ. Thanks!

  2. #22
    Boolit Buddy kaiser's Avatar
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    dsayer - I use Triple 7 FFFg in an Encore and have also encountered the "crude ring", as well as hard to seat conicals after the 3rd shot. The Encore is easier to clean from the "breech end" than most "traditionals". I had a .54 Renegade that I used black powder, then Pyrodex RS and it kicked like a "mule", but hit like a "freight train". I had an occasional "hang fire" and tried a "hot shot" nipple - didn't cure it. The maker of Pyrodex, late Dan Pawlak, once stated that "if the bullet or ball was not seated firmly on the powder a hang fire could result". (I don't know if that was during development or manufacture of the final product.) I am convinced of this result after experiencing hang fires in muzzle loading shotguns, as well as several rifle calibers, especially with RS and FFg Pyrodex. I've found Pyrodex FFFg ignites somewhat better, but still use RS in the shotguns and seat charges "firmly". (Black powder is a bit hard to get in my area at this time, so I use it mostly in pistols.) As to the increase recoil, others have better suggestions than I can offer, but I've found reduced loads don't lessen the effect on live game. I've gone back to round balls on my "traditional" rifles and am enjoying shooting them more! Good luck.

  3. #23
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Peabody View Post
    I've used the same rifle as you for a few hunts back in the 80's with the T/C Maxi, it kicks! The stock finally split in the wrist right behind the tang and I sold it. A round Ball in that rifle is going to kill any animal you hit properly; be happy with it. imho
    You wouldn't have any qualms about throwing a round ball at an elk? Seems the opinions out there are mixed but seem skewed towards round balls not being a good idea for animals that large. I'm pretty gosh darn confident shooting out to 100 yards but would think that would result in questionable energy for an elk at that distance.
    Shooting round balls is definitely my preference and my rifle is a tack driver with them.

  4. #24
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaiser View Post
    dsayer - I use Triple 7 FFFg in an Encore and have also encountered the "crude ring", as well as hard to seat conicals after the 3rd shot. The Encore is easier to clean from the "breech end" than most "traditionals". I had a .54 Renegade that I used black powder, then Pyrodex RS and it kicked like a "mule", but hit like a "freight train". I had an occasional "hang fire" and tried a "hot shot" nipple - didn't cure it. The maker of Pyrodex, late Dan Pawlak, once stated that "if the bullet or ball was not seated firmly on the powder a hang fire could result". (I don't know if that was during development or manufacture of the final product.) I am convinced of this result after experiencing hang fires in muzzle loading shotguns, as well as several rifle calibers, especially with RS and FFg Pyrodex. I've found Pyrodex FFFg ignites somewhat better, but still use RS in the shotguns and seat charges "firmly". (Black powder is a bit hard to get in my area at this time, so I use it mostly in pistols.) As to the increase recoil, others have better suggestions than I can offer, but I've found reduced loads don't lessen the effect on live game. I've gone back to round balls on my "traditional" rifles and am enjoying shooting them more! Good luck.
    I had never heard of the (apparently) infamous crud ring with T7 until joining this site. Interesting...
    I have some FFFG T7 that I use in my 54cal Plains Pistol and an old Sporterized Cabela's rifle. Would think I'd need to reduce the load pretty substantially if I were to try that. Probably like 65-70gr (volume from powder measure)?

  5. #25
    Boolit Grand Master
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    I'm a pretty big fan of Triple Seven powder. Use it in all sorts of rifles. Sometimes, however, it's not the best stuff to use. Had a friend's T/C Omega that had some bore pitting. Polished it out to a mirror finish and went about seeking a good load for him. Spent hours shooting and cleaning with various boolits and load charges. Got good results, but just not quite good enough. Just for the sake of complete testing, I went for some Pyrodex (even though it's not my favorite) and actually, literally, I started shooting one hole groups. You just might have to expand your experimentation some to find that "best recipe". Good luck.

  6. #26
    Boolit Grand Master

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    A 54 RB will retain it's energy better out to 100y and should be plenty good for elk, but what you are comfortable with is really more important. Some people even hunt elk with a 50 but it would not be my first choice. I have heard of the crud ring quite abit but have never used 777 yet even though I bought some to try. Your hang fire may have been just a one time deal. If you are getting the ring, you should be able to feel it when you clean your gun. Hopefully next time out you will not have any issues.
    Aim small, miss small!

  7. #27
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by mooman76 View Post
    A 54 RB will retain it's energy better out to 100y and should be plenty good for elk, but what you are comfortable with is really more important. Some people even hunt elk with a 50 but it would not be my first choice. I have heard of the crud ring quite abit but have never used 777 yet even though I bought some to try. Your hang fire may have been just a one time deal. If you are getting the ring, you should be able to feel it when you clean your gun. Hopefully next time out you will not have any issues.
    Would you cast the round ball with pure lead or harden it some? I've just used pure lead in my round balls.
    Also hoping the hang fire issue the other night was just a fluke.

  8. #28
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    Your round balls should be cast from pure, or pure with just a touch of tin for fill-out if needed.

  9. #29
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShooterAZ View Post
    Your round balls should be cast from pure, or pure with just a touch of tin for fill-out if needed.
    Thanks! That's what I was thinking as well but was reading through an old thread about using hard cast balls. Was thinking maybe better penetration for elk.

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-Muzzleloading

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsayer View Post
    Cool. I'll order some wads today from Track and give them a try.
    Thanks!
    Give me ,(PM) an address and I will send you some of all 3 so you can see the difference .You can then instead of wads buy yourself a wad punch and they sell (T.O.W.) polywad/card /veg in .030- .060 thick sheets and make your own . Much better

  11. #31
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edward View Post
    Give me ,(PM) an address and I will send you some of all 3 so you can see the difference .You can then instead of wads buy yourself a wad punch and they sell (T.O.W.) polywad/card /veg in .030- .060 thick sheets and make your own . Much better
    Seriously?! This place is incredible. Thanks to everyone for the helpful info.
    PM on the way.

  12. #32
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Some people like a little harder RB for more penetration. To each his own. I'd probably stick to soft or maybe just a touch of hardness.
    Aim small, miss small!

  13. #33
    Boolit Buddy
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    I have a renegade that loves the 380gr real with 110gr of 2f. It does kick a bit. If you can’t handle that gun send it over to me.

  14. #34
    Boolit Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastleo View Post
    I have a renegade that loves the 380gr real with 110gr of 2f. It does kick a bit. If you can’t handle that gun send it over to me.
    Uh, no...

  15. #35
    Boolit Buddy kaiser's Avatar
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    I wouldn't be too concerned about the published energy figures of round ball; for you can drive your 230gr much faster than any "conical" and it causes tremendous internal damage to an animal when hitting the "vitals". (Mountain men used them effectively on all manner of big game for a long time and many, if not most of their rifles, were under .54 caliber.) None of the big caliber "maxi-balls", Buffalo Bore, or REAL bullet have much of a ballistic coefficient to help the "looping" trajectory, so whatever you can use at the fastest velocity has the best chance of hitting where you aim, at least to 100 yards. I've found, at least with the Maxi-ball, that unless I hit bone on an animal the bullet does not seem to expand to any degree. Of course, .54 caliber is over 1/2" so expansion's not quite as important as with the smaller calibers. I also have read that it is not a good idea to use other than (near) pure lead bullets in muzzle loaders, especially in the early traditional models, because the barrel steel was designed for lower pressures. A harder cast bullet could cause extra stress and wear with long term use. I wouldn't worry about a pure lead round ball or conical not penetrating enough; I think that hardening the bullets would only make them into "solids" and having a projectile that expands, or "flattens" can "shorten the blood trail".
    Last edited by kaiser; 03-17-2018 at 07:49 PM.

  16. #36
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Lee does make a 300gr REAL in 54 if you are needing less recoil.
    Aim small, miss small!

  17. #37
    Boolit Master
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    I just ran a .490” ball using 80 grns of 2F T7 with a BC of 0.069 and a 320 grn Lee REAL with the same powder charge and a BC of 0.189 and found that the ball had more of a rainbow trajectory both when sighted at 100 yds and 150 yds. The Lee REAL isn’t listed so I used the velocities listed for heavier bullets (1422, 1465, 1487, and 1526) and rounded it up to 1500 fps as it’s roughly 30 grns lighter.

    These figures are for 900’ and with a 10 mph crosswind and have 25 yd increments.

    Ball at 1842 fps and sighted at 100 yds and 150 yds:
    1.1”, 2.0”, 1.8”, 0.0”, and -3.6” and sighted further 2.7”, 5.2”, 6.6”, 6.4”, 4.3”, 0.0”, and -6.8”

    The wind drift is:
    0.6”, 2.4”, 5.6”, 10.1”, 15.8”, 22.5”, and 30.1”

    The REAL traveling at 1500 fps:
    1.2”, 2.0”, 1.7”, 0.0” and -3.1” and further 2.5”, 4.7”, 5.6”, 5.3”, 3.5”, 0.0” and -5.2”

    The wind drift is:
    0.3”, 1.1”, 2.3”, 4.1”, 6.4”, 9.2”, and 12.4”

    As we can see the REAL actually has a little less rainbow and certainly would be a better choice on a breezy day. And upping the powder charge for the ball really doesn’t change things much.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    I was thinking about this a little more and realized that my saying that upping the powder charge wouldn’t change things much and this is true of the downrange velocity/energy figures but I hadn’t really concerned myself much with the trajectory and wind drift so I ran the ball using 100 grns which gives a velocity of 1988 fps.

    0.8”, 1.7”, 1.5”, 0.0”, and -3.2” and zeroed further it is 2.2”, 4.5”, 5.7”, 5.6”, 3.9”, 0.0”, and -6.2”

    And the wind drift is:
    0.6”, 2.2”, 5.1”, 9.5”, 15.1”, 21.8”, and 29.5”

    So we see that another 20 grns of 2F got the shorter distance figures a little more slimmed as far as bullet rise but the drop was a hair more. And out there further it still has a more pronounced rainbow. And the wind drift didn’t change significantly.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
    Mr Peabody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsayer View Post
    You wouldn't have any qualms about throwing a round ball at an elk? Seems the opinions out there are mixed but seem skewed towards round balls not being a good idea for animals that large. I'm pretty gosh darn confident shooting out to 100 yards but would think that would result in questionable energy for an elk at that distance.
    Shooting round balls is definitely my preference and my rifle is a tack driver with them.
    I would use them, I only have 1 rifle that shoots them well enough for me to be confident with them. If you can hit what your aiming at they'll do the job.

  20. #40
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    Back off the powder IMHO

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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