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Thread: Springfield 1903 Low Number Reloads

  1. #61
    Boolit Grand Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StratsMan View Post
    I too have read that there were poorly trained workers who mis-read the color of the steel during heat treat before instrumentation was put in place. And that the "old hands" were much better at turning out quality heat-treated receivers in the early guns, just as reliable as the Krags. So I shoot mild pressure reloads in my 17,xxx numbered Springfield 1903, as it was produced well before any rush to build rifles for WWI and re-built at Raritan, likely after WWI, as it now wears a barrel dated 1918...
    Just to be accurate - it wasn't poor training. It was the overconfident "old hands" who did not realize the effect of ambient light on their assessment of how hot the steel was. They did not believe the temperature difference between bright shiny days and overcast, cloudy days until it was proven to them.
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  2. #62
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Having seen what happens when low numbers do let go, I would sell it to a collector and buy an 03A3 to shoot.
    The ENEMY is listening.
    HE wants to know what YOU know.
    Keep it to yourself.

  3. #63
    Boolit Mold
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    If I may, I would like to add my $0.02. There are a number of questions no one seems to ask. If there was a problem at Springfield and Rock Island then I would look first at who made the steel. I have a feeling that only one company supplied the steel that was to be forged into receivers.

    I believe the men in the forge shop would know what they were doing. How long do think the windows would stay clean? It would not matter at all if it was sunny or in the middle of the night. When they placed that piece of steel under the forging hammer they could tell if it was too hot or too cold. If someone was telling them to keep the steel on the soft side so that the dies would last longer we may never know.

    I do believe there was a problem with some of the ammunition.

    I also believe there was a problem with the design of the rifle. The engineers were trying to get around the patents that Mauser held. Speaking of Mauser, they made over 8 million K98s. How many blew up? Not counting those that fired a spiked round that the US made.

    I am not a believer in conspiracy theories, but when important information is being omitted and a small group of people who don’t have a voice is being thrown under the bus, I smell something fishy.
    They blamed the men who heated the steel for forging or heat treating. Did anyone hear what those men had to say?

    The science of alloying steel was in its infancy in 1906. I know people that will not fire their Colt SAA with smokeless powder because it was made before 1910. Colt used only the best steels.

    One last thing. I believe about fifteen years ago, American Rifleman had short article stating that the steel that was sent to the armories was already “burnt”.

  4. #64
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    Sam Hamburger -- you made a few great points! To add a couple of more pennies, a fellow in one of the clubs I belong to blew up his SECOND 1903a3 but a few weeks ago (a Smith Corona beauty!). Nothing to do with any heat treating or other possible FACTORY flaw. For decorum, I'll only use his initials, H.W., and once again he was using his hand-load of pistol powder behind commercial cast bullets. I've heard a great number of persons with scores of years reloading/shooting experience behind them, including two who were at the range when HW had the second failure -- and the following lonnnng discussion as to "why's" often brought up the lo-numbered 1903s -- stating that one of these, and probably even a hi-number one, would have equally been destroyed. Makes me kind of wonder exactly what role the ammunition used, as opposed to a poor heat treatment, had...
    geo

  5. #65
    Boolit Mold
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    I know that some reloaders use pistol powder and filler to make “squib” rounds. I have a 30-06 rifle that I plan to fire this winter. I will load some cartridges with Trail Boss and cast lead boolits.

    How much of the cartridge case is unsupported in an 03/03A3?

  6. #66
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    Re cartridge case support -- I have no idea. (Matter of fact, I'm pretty uneducated across the board -- which is why I need rely with an extremely high percentage on written proven results gleaned from empirical data of respected sources.) 'Specially with my having three low-numbered '03s, I try to read anything posted, and am -- in general -- interested in firearm failures at ranges. As (another hobby) a pianist, I do have perhaps an extra interest in keeping my fingers intact .
    In my tenure, I've seen/"been there" for TWO firearm blow-ups, with these both being handgun -- a S&W Model 52 .38, and, a Colt 38 revolver -- both attributed (???) to loading error -- too much powder/double charge ??? -- by each. H.W.'s 1903a3 blow-up was noted, and most were relieved that all his "wounds" were superficial -- a bit of blood here and there, and swollen hand/fingers for a few days, but he retained unaltered sight in both eyes as well as ten fully functioning fingers. It was questioned if in fact he may have used the SAME box of his reloads to blow up the second? I don't know. What I DO know is two -- one of which being truly a gorgeous specimen -- Smith Corona's were destroyed. The latter one sported an early SC barrel, too.
    My post was to reinforce your comments vis it perhaps not being poor steel or heat treatment as the culprit on low numbered units. Interesting, too, is I have taken apart many rounds of quite old '06 corrosive-primed ammo to anneal and provide to a friend who makes blanks for use at military funerals in this area, and have seen some have "powder" which is best described as very thin spaghetti, or pencil lead, in shape. This, as stated, in old military ammo, may have a bearing on it, too. Albeit smokeless powder is a flammable solid, it can/has behaved like an explosive. The Brit's shooting regiment of raising the muzzle straight up before shooting came from using stored ammo over-produced to not replicate Zulu War shortages, which, they learned, on occasion would explode if all the powder was not against the primer; and, even some current powders have warnings re NOT using less than "n" grains, too.
    Summing it up, there is sooooo much out there to learn, and so little -- at least this fellow -- really knows.
    BEST!
    geo
    Last edited by georgerkahn; 11-26-2018 at 03:54 PM.

  7. #67
    Boolit Master
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    .122 from the base of a Go-gage to the bottom of the extractor cut of my 03a3 barrel. Another .020 or .025 of bevel below the extractor cut , but hard for me to measure accurately. So my estimate is .147 + depending on headspace

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu View Post
    Not all kaboom’s are from weak receivers. Here is one on an 03A3 from 1943.
    Good points from both sides but it does happen to guns other than low# 03s.

    https://www.njgunforums.com/forum/in...ngton-blow-up/

    Paul in WNY
    I have to point out... the rifle receiver pictured retained its structural integrity. This is NOT an example of the kind of failure that some brittle low number Springfields have experienced.
    Click image for larger version. 

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  9. #69
    Boolit Mold
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    I have not actually measured how much of the 30-06 case sticks out of the chamber. Hatcher said it was about 1/4 of an inch. His concern was the faulty ammunition. If I had a Springfield I would place a new case with no primer, no powder, and no projectile in the chamber to see the stick-out.

  10. #70
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    Another good point, Sam Hamburger! To add still another stick to this fire, my dad (rest his soul) who carried rifles -- both the Springfield, which HE preferred over the other rifle -- Garand in the WWII Philippine jungles for but a few days short of two full years -- maintained that the part of either rifle which seemed to receive the least attention is its chamber, while the rifle's bore would be actually be often "hurt" by over-zealous field cleaning. I, frankly, have little love for the chamber brush, as it generally "wants to get stuck" in the chamber, requiring (for me) three hands -- one each to turn the brush in attempt to free it, a second to push a Dewey cleaning rod giving pressure through barrel so to remove it, while holding the rifle with the third hand. Grrrrrr! BUT, still, a MOST necessary, as stated often overlooked, maintenance requirement.
    I've noted on a few '06s which have passed through my hands in years past, the cases did in fact not fully chamber -- UNTIL I cussed a little while brushing a lot to clean the chamber back to SAAMI. As a side note, I have read, too, that dirty chambers not enabling full seating of case as still another possible cause of rifle failures. I've attached here a photo of the brush I'm referring to; vis these, too, note they come in two different flavors: one each for the '06, and, the .308 calibers -- and it is imperative that the correct one be employed for the caliber of the firearm's chamber you are cleaning.Attachment 231064
    geo

  11. #71
    Boolit Master
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    I'd like to hear the exact process used in boring the "Hatcher Hole" in Low Number receivers.
    I know that it can be very difficult to drill and tap any receiver that is surface hardened with old style carbon steel drill bits. I've used a grinding ball head to grind a shallow dish through the carburized layer at the point I want to drill.
    I've been told that 1903 receivers were especially difficult to DT.

    I suspect that whatever method was used to bore the Hatcher Hole would reveal whether the receiver was too hard and brittle below the surface.

    Personally I would not wish to fire a LN 03 that did not have the Hatcher Hole and a post 1918 barrel.

    BTW
    Only burnt steel problem from suppliers I read of was the bumped up barrel blanks provided for the pre 1919 barrels. A number of LN blow ups were entirely due to defective barrels. This was recognized and proven at the time.

    Soured priming compound due to substandard raw chemicals caused a number of out of battery incidents and injuries as well. There's a congressional report on this.
    Before the war the chemicals for military primers were obtained from Germany, it was then found that domestic ores were contaminated causing chemicals to degrade rapidly. A commercial priming compound formula that took this into account was later substituted solving that problem.

  12. #72
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by georgerkahn View Post
    Another good point, Sam Hamburger! To add still another stick to this fire, my dad (rest his soul) who carried rifles -- both the Springfield, which HE preferred over the other rifle -- Garand in the WWII Philippine jungles for but a few days short of two full years -- maintained that the part of either rifle which seemed to receive the least attention is its chamber, while the rifle's bore would be actually be often "hurt" by over-zealous field cleaning. I, frankly, have little love for the chamber brush, as it generally "wants to get stuck" in the chamber, requiring (for me) three hands -- one each to turn the brush in attempt to free it, a second to push a Dewey cleaning rod giving pressure through barrel so to remove it, while holding the rifle with the third hand. Grrrrrr! BUT, still, a MOST necessary, as stated often overlooked, maintenance requirement.
    I've noted on a few '06s which have passed through my hands in years past, the cases did in fact not fully chamber -- UNTIL I cussed a little while brushing a lot to clean the chamber back to SAAMI. As a side note, I have read, too, that dirty chambers not enabling full seating of case as still another possible cause of rifle failures. I've attached here a photo of the brush I'm referring to; vis these, too, note they come in two different flavors: one each for the '06, and, the .308 calibers -- and it is imperative that the correct one be employed for the caliber of the firearm's chamber you are cleaning.Attachment 231064
    geo
    The Chamber neck can be reduced in diameter by hardened carbon deposits causing excessive pressures. I made a scraper from brass tubing to clear away this build up. I filed saw teeth on the open end and after each pass turning the tubing to cut away the carbon I spread the open end again to a tight fit. The job was done when the teeth had nothing softer than brass to catch on.

    Later I found the US Cavalry had issued brass scrapers something like this for cleaning Spencer carbine chambers of BP fouling in the field.

  13. #73
    Boolit Mold
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    Multigunner - If you take a carbon drill you can make it hard enough to drill glass. The trick is to heat the drill to hardening temperature and then cool it in turpentine.

    I only did this once. I was holding the drill in vise grips as I only wanted the the tip to be extra hard.
    It took a few drills to get the hang of it.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check