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Thread: NOE 30 XCB, 30x60 XCB, 600 yards

  1. #1
    Boolit Master


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    NOE 30 XCB, 30x60 XCB, 600 yards

    I'm posting this not to cause any further consternation among some but simple because in another thread (now locked) I said I would post the results of my testing my 30x60 XCB rifle with the 30 XCB bullet at 2900 fps at 600 yards. This is simply the facts and results of that test I said I would report on as many have expressed interest to see the results.

    The weather cooperated with a beautiful morning here in Arizona. Was at my shooting place in the desert at daybreak and got set up so 1st shot went down range at 0730. Temperature was 45 degrees and when I finished shooting at 1030 it was up to 60 degrees. The humidity was 25%. I staked the target (older NRA “B” target for 600 yard) on the hillside and put up the wind flag. The wind was very calm to begin with so I was able to get off 4 groups (three 10 shot and one 15 shot) before it got squirrelly. Even at the 2900 fps I’m shooting the 30 XCB at out of my 30x60 XCB rifle given the low BC the wind really pushes the bullet around at long range.

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    Off to the right of the target a couple feet you can see a little black rock in the road. That’s my “spotter” target. About 2/3 the way to the flag pole is a couple large powder jugs filled with water, more on them in a bit. Repairing back to the 600 yard firing point I prepared a prone shooting position. From the rifle the target looked like this;

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    I took 6 shots (3 foulers and then 3 confirm) to get “on” the sighter rock and then I put 3 rounds into the black powder jugs of water. I should have quit then and rebuilt my shooting position as I had just set the front rest on the bare rocks/gravel. That didn’t work well during the next 10 shots on the target as the feet of the rest dug into the ground. I knew I had dropped on down out of the group as the rest was not solid at all so I called that shot. I then went up and checked the Target and sure enough there was a shot down and away. Here is the target. The 9 shots that were "good calls", even with the unsettling rest, went into right at a 10” group.

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    The ballistics from the “Applied Ballistics” program said 20.28 moa elevation correction was required to go from a 100 zero to a 600 yard zero. I had thus set the elevation on the Leupold 6.5x20 scope (zeroed at 100 yards) up 20 ¼ moa, looked good to me. However, I obviously need to go right ¾ moa for windage. The tears in the target are from rock splatter shooting at the “sighter” rock.

    I pasted the bullet holes and tears and repaired back to the 600 yard point and rebuilt my prone position using a slab of plywood for the rest. Don’t know why I just didn’t do that in the 1st place…..

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    It was a much more sold rest and position as the next group demonstrates. I adjusted the windage ¾ moa right…..should have gone another 1 ¼ moa right but what the hey…..can’t complain. The 10 shot group is just under 7”.

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    Pasted those holes and wet back to the 600 yard point. I was waiting long enough between the groups so the barrel would cool and was giving it at least a minute between shots. The third group was interesting because I had given the windage another ½ moa right and then shot 3 “sighters” on the sighter rock and all appeared good. As I settled in on the target the wind flag began to move. I could not feel any wind movement where I was but it appeared a 1 -2 mph wind had picked up coming out of 10 o’clock. I just held steady and shot when the flag was in the same position (condition). In that small amount of wind the group moved 2 moa right or about 12”. The group size was a tudge less than 6”…..that’s moa accuracy at 600 yards!

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    Again I pasted the holes and returned to the 600 yard point. I had 15 shots left and the wind was getting squirrelly now coming in from 11 o’clock and switching back and forth to the 1 o’clock. I left the zero alone and shot the 15 rounds trying to shoot when the wind was the same. I wasn't quite able to do that and the wind caught me several times. I should have given it a half moa more elevation because the head wind caused the bullet to slow down quicker with more drop. You can see the lateral dispersion also due to wind and how the POI dropped. Even so I was pleased with a 9” group with the 15 shots.

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    All that took about 3 hours to shoot the 4 groups. By then, 10:30 am it was 60 degrees and the wind was still switching back and forth. I took 10 shots at the sighter with my suppressed .308W M70 with a M118 White box duplication load (LC Match cases, WLR primers, 41.5 gr IMR4895 and a 174 gr M118 bullet. I hit the sighter rock 6 times. I then shot a few rounds out of my Ruger OM Vaquero 44-40 at a couple pop cans. The morning had gone well.

    Oh, almost forgot the powder jugs with water. I had set them tandem so at 600 yards the 30 XCBs would have to go through both. The right bullet was the 1st hit, then the left and finally the center shot. The jugs noticeably jumped when hit, especially the first hit. Here is the front;

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    All three hits went through and through. Here is the back of the rear jug and you can see the 1st hit tumbled in the 2nd jug and burst the side.

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    So that ended a very good morning with the average moa of the three 10 shot groups and the 15 shot last group at 1.3 moa. ……not too shabby for a cast bullet at 2900 fps out at 600 yards……..
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 03-10-2018 at 09:56 AM.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Whoa Dang! You sir, have some reloading and shooting skills. I gotta ask, pics and details of the rifle?

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy Time Killer's Avatar
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    Nice Shooting

  4. #4
    Awesome I am impressed amazing how much a little wind changes things I am working towards doing something similar later in the year as I get things setup on my end your post helps in setting things up like a solid rest to start with thanks for the post and the info that goes with it.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master Hannibal's Avatar
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    As always, stellar shooting, stellar data and stellar explanations.

    Nice job Mr. Gibson.
    Missing the target is not the worst thing you can do.
    Not taking the shot is.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    Fantastic write-up, and the great results on paper speak for themselves. Thank you for bringing us out to the range with you.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master




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    Hot ****, Larry! Way To Go!
    Echo
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    One of the most endearing sights in the world is the vision of a naked good-looking woman leaving the bedroom to make breakfast. Bolivar Shagnasty (I believe that Lazarus Long also said it, but I can't find any record of it.)

  8. #8
    Boolit Master


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    You can't shoot cast bullets that far!

  9. #9
    Great shooting Larry !!
    The insulated state in which nature has placed the American continent should so far avail it that no spark of war kindled in the other quarters of the globe should be wafted across the wide oceans which separate us from them." -- Thomas Jefferson

  10. #10
    Boolit Master BNE's Avatar
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    Good Bullet making, good shooting and nice write up. Thanks.
    I'm a Happy Clinger.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master


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    There are those that do and those that talk.....

    Not many can do that MOA performance at 100 yards, let alone 600! And not even using a solid bench!!

    Great report Larry and thanks for sharing.
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  12. #12
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by sigep1764 View Post
    Whoa Dang! You sir, have some reloading and shooting skills. I gotta ask, pics and details of the rifle?
    It’s the rifle started out life as a CZ24 in 7.9mm and sometime during the war was captured and refurbished in Russia or Rumania and used by the Rumanians. It was imported into the US and sold at Big 5 to a friend of mine. He wanted a Malcom scope mounted on his Sharps so I did the D&T and mounting for the barreled action as he wanted the stock for another rifle. The 7.9mm barrel was really toast looking like a sewer pipe. I put a new 24” 30-06 barrel on it and bedded it in the Bell & Carlson Premier Stock. I also D&T’d it for the scope base, forged the bolt handle and put a Timney deluxe trigger on it. I used it for my ’06 pressure test rifle and as a loaner for hunting.

    After several years of very successful testing of HV cast bullets (311466 and 30 XCB bullets) in my .308W M70 target rifle and my .308W M98 Palma rifle with 12 and 14” twists I theorized with a 16” twist barrel with a cartridge having 3 – 4 more gr capacity of AA4350 than the .308W perhaps 2900 + fps could be had while maintain less than 2 moa accuracy with cast bullets. I had found 2500 – 2600 fps was very possible with the Palma 14” twist 27.5” barrel with the .308W using the same 30×57 concept I came up with years ago for Mauser actions which is using shortened 30-06 dies and 30-06 brass to form the 30×57. The 30×57 has the came case capacity as the 308W yet retains the body taper to feed through Mauser actions w/o action modifications. Also standard ’06 dies and reamers can be used by shortening the dies and short chambering the barrel for the 30×57 cartridge. Discussions with Tim and sending him sample 30-57 cartridges led to the 30 XCB cartridge which is the same except it has a very tight neck (.337”). I formed a case giving 3 -4 more gr of case capacity with AA4350 powder and it turned out to be a 30×60…..about half way between the .308W and the 30-06. Cases were/are easily formed using the standard shortened ’06 dies and Winchester cases.

    Thus I ordered a Broughton 32” Palma contoured barrel with a 16” twist. It has 3 lands and grooves. I had the barrel shipped to Tim and stripped the CZ24 rifle down to just the action and sent that to Tim. Tim did the barrel job giving a 31” finished barrel. I had form three 30×60 cases and sent them along with the action for Time to headspace the chamber on with just a crush feel as the bolt closed. Tim did an outstanding job of truing and barreling the action. The chambering is perfect. He also did the superb polish and bluing. He replaced the CZ24 bottom metal with that from an Argentine ’09 which added just that perfect ”custom” touch to it.

    When I received the barreled action back from Tim I rebedded it into the B&C Premier stock. The scope on it in the picture is a Leupold 6×20 target. The rifle holds MOA to 400 yards with cast 30 XCB bullets at 2900+ fps. (after the thorough testing of that load (9 February, 2018) it holds 1.3 moa accuracy to 600 yards. I’ve tested several other cast bullets in this rifle from the 311359, NOE 311465 up through the Lyman 311041 and found accuracy to also be very good at truly high velocity. The only jacketed bullets I’ve shot through it were Speer 130 gr HPs. The rifle holds 1/2 moa at 3300+ fps and is super deadly on varmints.

    I could not be happier. I am going to order another Broughton 32” Palma contour barrel with a 12” twist for a M70 I have. I plan on Tim building a long range rifle for me chambered in 30-06. He just built one for a friend of mine on a M700 action and it is very accurate out to 1000 yards so far. It should, with 175 MKs or 178 VLDs hold to 1400+ yards….perhaps a mile. Velocity with those bullets and the long barrel is 2950 – 3000 fps.

    The creation of this 30x60 rifle for high velocity cast bullet shooting certainly makes it one of my most prized rifles.

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    The cartridges shown are (left to right); the 308 CBC, the .308W, the 3x57, the 30x60 XCB and the 30-06. The 308 CBC is formed from the .308W. The 30x57 and the 30x60 XCB are formed from Winchester 30-06 cases in shortened 30-06 dies.

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    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  13. #13
    Boolit Man
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    Good evening,
    Larry; those are exactly the results I was expecting to see... That rifle “Dawn” really is a beauty of a cast boolit shooter. If I understand right, that is the exact combination I was shooting when I visited and put “Dawn” through her paces. Only 300 paces.... I would have really enjoyed trying her out at those longer ranges.
    Excellent write up and it just shows what can be done.
    Can’t wait for my 15 twist 30-06 to be finished..... I am looking for results similar to yours.
    Have an awesome week!!!!

  14. #14
    Boolit Master


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    Yes, that is the exact combination you shot. I'm also looking forward to the completion of your rifle. I've no doubt you will find considerable success at high velocity with it. Waiting your reports.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  15. #15
    Boolit Master kens's Avatar
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    Awesome Larry,
    What is the 308 CBC?

    Is that a 30-06 die shortened to 300Savage overall length?

  16. #16
    Boolit Master


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    kens

    The 308 CBC is made with a shortened .308W die. It has a case capacity slightly less than the 300 Savage but has the neck length of the 30-06. I built it years ago on a M93 Spanish action that I also converted to cock on opening. I used a new 2 groove 'A3 barrel. I was thinking with a case with the '06 neck to keep the lube grooves of the 311284 in it with the GC at the base of the neck and that had 100% load density with 4895 giving 2200 fps would be just the ticket. Back then (1980) I didn't understand the adverse affect of RPM on cast bullets. Thus best accuracy still came between 1750 and 1850 fps with the 311284, just the same as it did in any 30-06. Knowing what I know now I should have used a 12" or 14" twist barrel. Then I would have gotten great accuracy at the desired 2200 fps with that cartridge. We live and learn.......a very good cast bullet cartridge though.

    I've a M700 22-250 that, when shot out, I may have goodsteel put a 26" barrel with a 14" twist on it. I'll have him chamber it in 308 CBC. That's easily done as the chamber is cut with a tight neck .308W to headspace tightly on the shoulder of formed cases with short necks....3 such cases is sufficient. Then a standard 30-6 match reamer is used to length the chamber neck to '06 length. With 308 CBC cases formed from LC Match or M80 cases the necks are turned to a nice tight fit. No custom dies needed either as standard FL, NS and seaters can easily be shortened.

    With a 311041 at 2500 fps +/- it should make an excellent cast bullet hunting rifle. Or if a heavier barrel and BR stock were added it should make an excellent CBA BR match rifle.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  17. #17
    Boolit Master kens's Avatar
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    Larry,
    If you run 308W brass thru a 300Savage FL die, you get about the same result?? Headspace it to standard 300Sav, size with standard 300Sav dies, with just a longer throat to suit?
    I had asked about this on a similar forum and got all sorts of answers why it couldn't be done.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by kens View Post
    Larry,
    If you run 308W brass thru a 300Savage FL die, you get about the same result?? Headspace it to standard 300Sav, size with standard 300Sav dies, with just a longer throat to suit?
    I had asked about this on a similar forum and got all sorts of answers why it couldn't be done.
    kens

    I never said you couldn't form cases that way or chamber a rifle that way, there's no reason you can't do it that way. Do it that way if you want. You ask on other threads and now on this thread (nothing to do with the topic of this thread BTW) about the 308 CBC. I told you the reasons I did what I did to make my own 308 CBC. You do want to do it your way, fine. I did it my way and I gave you the honest reasons why I chose to make the 308 CBC the way I did.

    Don't understand you having heartburn over me not doing what you'd do, especially when I made my 308 CBC years before you made your suggestion on this forum of how you'd do it.....

    How about we stick to the topic of this thread? By all means make your version of the cartridge and build your own rifle for it. Then develop a good cast bullet load at 2900 fps and go shoot at 600 yards. Then we can compare accuracy of your cartridge vs. the 30x60, which I used in this thread, at 600 yards.......
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 03-14-2018 at 10:14 AM.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Really nice

  20. #20
    Boolit Master waco's Avatar
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    So how was that on your neck and back Larry shooting from the prone position uphill like that? I've tried to do it and it kills me.
    Can I also ask how big your target is and how tall is that wind flag?
    Thanks a lot.
    Waco
    The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
    Proverbs 1:7

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check