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Thread: 45-70 new brass

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    45-70 new brass

    Just received my first new brass from Starline.
    Do these new cases need to be full length sized or should I just use the expander?
    What do you folks do with new cases before loading them ?
    I'd like to know why well-educated idiots keep apologizing for lazy and complaining people who think the world owes them a living.

    John "Duke" Wayne

  2. #2
    Boolit Master MOA's Avatar
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    Well, for me why take chances. I like to check all of the cases for their overall length. If I need to trim I want to get them sized and then do the trim. But I almost always size my new brass just as a matter of knowing what I'm dealing with from the get go.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    I agree with MOA. I always size and trim (if necessary) any new brass I get. After that....I'll neck size, not size, etc. as the application warrants, but I like to know what I'm starting with.
    "Do not follow where the path might lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail" Ralph Waldo Emerson

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    I size them, don’t know if they “need to be.”

  5. #5
    Boolit Master redhawk0's Avatar
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    I always size mine...they usually have some small dents in them. So just in case one is slightly bent due to a dent...I size new brass.

    redhawk

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  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    All new Straight WALL cases should be Full-Length Sized. Even tapered cases like .45-70 or .44-40.
    The first brass I bought from starline was .45COLT. I expanded the case mouths as I always did with new REMINGTON & WINCHESTER. Then primed and charged them, when I put the first bullet into the first case, it fell all the way down to the powder. From then on any new starline cases are always FULL-LENGTH SIZED.

    I've never bought any bottle neck brass from them so I can't speak to those sizing requirements.
    Happiness is a Warm GUN & more ammo to shoot in it.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Thanks all...........a sizing I will go..
    I'd like to know why well-educated idiots keep apologizing for lazy and complaining people who think the world owes them a living.

    John "Duke" Wayne

  8. #8
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    On brand new brass I have some extra steps and some standard steps I go thru. On starline 45-70 I anneal the necks first since I load black powder in it and starline recommends this. I then lightly trim just to square mouths if needed. I also uniform the primer pockets flat and to the same depth. chamfer and deburr mouths and last deburr flash holes. From here I size the cases to make sure they all will chamber freely. I use a slightly larger expander rod in my die this time since cases arnt expanded and I hand seat bullets into the cases.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    I'm just shooting low power 45-70 350gr cast loads...1000fps with Unique.
    Taking it easy on my 1902 Winchester 1886 Xtra Lightweight. Just fun loads smacking gongs.
    I'd like to know why well-educated idiots keep apologizing for lazy and complaining people who think the world owes them a living.

    John "Duke" Wayne

  10. #10
    Black Powder 100%


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    I will go along with Country Gent on annealing the case mouths on your 45-70 cases. This will ensure that each and every bullet will load the same and allow the bullet to release from the case mouth the same. Using the correct sized bullet and BHN will also allow them to expand and fill the the bore with gas behind the bullet. If you want the best from your rifle, you should anneal at least every other time of firing. Your Big time shooters anneal their cases after each firing. You can get blow by on any straight walled case.
    A lot of cowboy shooters who fire rifles with the 45 Colt often complain about how dirty the rifle is after a match. If they would anneal the cases, this problem would go way down, not as well as the 44wcf because of it's case design.
    Shooter of the "HOLY BLACK" SASS 81802 AKA FAIRSHAKE; NRA ; BOLD; WARTHOG;Deadwood Marshal;Bayou Bounty Hunter; So That his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat; 44 WCF filled to the top, 210 gr. bullet

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    You are wasting your time to size any case that will chamber.

    Round up the case mouths with the expander.
    Then load and shoot.
    EDG

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Reading up on annealing brass...there is a whole 'nuther science about annealing brass...more involved in getting it right.
    I'd like to know why well-educated idiots keep apologizing for lazy and complaining people who think the world owes them a living.

    John "Duke" Wayne

  13. #13
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    With light loads and starline brass you will get sooty cases the 1st firing or 2. At least I did when shooting these in my 1895. Todd/3leg

  14. #14
    Boolit Master rr2241tx's Avatar
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    I compete with Starline brass in several calibers and my opinion is that you need to pay attention to the manufacturer's recommendation and anneal your brass. Also, you aren't doing yourself any favors by saving money on your annealing. All the good annealing machines are going to cost a bunch up front but all your brass will have the same neck tension after processing. Without a uniform neck tension you are not going to get the full benefit of all the rest of your expensive rifle, sights, rests, bullet molds, etc., so you end up chasing precision your cartridges can't deliver. The nut behind the butt should be the variable you strive to control, all the rest can/should be dealt with before you go to the range.
    rr2241tx
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  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by rr2241tx View Post
    I compete with Starline brass in several calibers and my opinion is that you need to pay attention to the manufacturer's recommendation and anneal your brass. Also, you aren't doing yourself any favors by saving money on your annealing. All the good annealing machines are going to cost a bunch up front but all your brass will have the same neck tension after processing. Without a uniform neck tension you are not going to get the full benefit of all the rest of your expensive rifle, sights, rests, bullet molds, etc., so you end up chasing precision your cartridges can't deliver. The nut behind the butt should be the variable you strive to control, all the rest can/should be dealt with before you go to the range.
    I'm not using black powder, and the manufacturer says:


    How can I soften case mouth to allow case to properly seal when using black powder in 45-70, 45-90, 45-2.6 (45-100) and 40-65?



    1.) Be aware this is not always necessary. Only if cases are extremely dirty and a lot of unburned powder is consistently found in chamber would you need to anneal.

    2.) First place case in proper container filled with approximately 1 inch of water so head of case is submerged in water. (Reason is you only want to soften mouth of case and not head area as this can ruin strength at base and primer pocket where case must remain rigid to handle pressure.)

    3.) Next heat case mouth (approx. top 1/2 inch of case) uniformly just to where it begins to turn a dullred and then knock over in water. A propane torch is usually used for heating device. MOST IMPORTANT: Remember if case gets too hot they are ruined and there is no way to make hard again. So, try a few out and get a feel for the proper color and softness required for your application. If they get bright red, you probably went too far.
    I'd like to know why well-educated idiots keep apologizing for lazy and complaining people who think the world owes them a living.

    John "Duke" Wayne

  16. #16
    Boolit Master rr2241tx's Avatar
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    Do what you want. I mistakenly thought you wanted advice.
    rr2241tx
    Timin' has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.

  17. #17
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    You should listen to the people here. Many have decades of reloading the 45-70 and know more about annealing than do Starline.

    Starline needs a kick in the pants for cheaping out on the annealing process.
    EDG

  18. #18
    Boolit Master Toymaker's Avatar
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    Anneal, uniform flash holes, full length size, sort by length, trim as necessary, bevel inside case mouth, smooth outside case mouth, notch rim for indexing. I don't expand until I'm loading because the brass will spring back slightly.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toymaker View Post
    Anneal, uniform flash holes, full length size, sort by length, trim as necessary, bevel inside case mouth, smooth outside case mouth, notch rim for indexing. I don't expand until I'm loading because the brass will spring back slightly.
    Sir, would you kindly expand upon “notch rim for indexing”? Specifically curious if you index to the dies in the loading process, the rifle, or both. More generally am curious about when you started doing this and how you feel about the results. Seems like a way to mitigate the effect of inconsistent brass or inconsistent crimp from a slightly misaligned die, is that what you’re after?

  20. #20
    Boolit Master Toymaker's Avatar
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    JimB - using a dremel and a cutting wheel I make a small nick in the same place on the rim of every case. For Starline it's between the stars. For future neck or full sizing this nick is always oriented front and center in the shell holder. (BP cases are fire formed with the index mark straight up in the chamber and never sized again) The cast bullets have an index mark also, so when loading the bullet index and case index are lined up. Again, the case is front and center in the shell holder. The bullet is started, about half way and then the case and bullet are rotated 180 degrees to finish seating. No crimp with 45-70 or 38-55, smokeless or black powder. Everything I do to a case is oriented on the placement of the index mark.
    When I first got my 45-70 I would get unexplained flyers. Someone with more experience suggested indexing. Since then I can call the shot before the spotter. To 100 yards I can't tell the difference. At 200 yards and beyond there is a difference and it gets greater as the range goes farther.
    Now, is this real or does it go with my wearing my magic hat backwards? Can't tell you, but I feel more comfortable and confident when I do it. Yes, I did have my brother load 5 rounds without special handling which were marked, plus 5 of my rounds which were marked. My brother loaded the rifle and handed it to me to shoot from the bench at 200 yards. So I didn't know what I was shooting. He kept the records. I had 10 hits with 10 shots. .........BUT, 5 were clustered tightly on the plate and 5 were in a more open group.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check