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Thread: Introducing: The .22 ladybug

  1. #61
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chev. William View Post
    I read somewhere on another forum that Magnum Primers typically raise pressures about 3500psi, with all other variables being held equal, over regular primer.

    How far from the Muzzle were the bullets stopping, an dhow long is the test barrel over all, with the regular primers only?

    Chev. William
    That's a good thought, I'll see if I have some SP mag primers to try out.

    The bullets stopped at various places in the bore, and pushed out with little force. I was testing in a 16.25" barrel. In a 7" barrel they work fine, but aren't moving very fast.
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  2. #62
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    NoZombies - Let's just say I'm IMPRESSED!!! Something I always wanted was a centerfire .22LR. Yes, I know I can buy .22LR for around same price as reloading these days, I just enjoy the reloading and casting my own bullets. I'm VERY impressed with your work. Each time I think I've got all the guns I need - you've just added one more that I really "need"

    I see you're in N. Fla - I'm just across the line in Baldwin county.

    Ken H>

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenH View Post
    NoZombies - Let's just say I'm IMPRESSED!!! Something I always wanted was a centerfire .22LR. Yes, I know I can buy .22LR for around same price as reloading these days, I just enjoy the reloading and casting my own bullets. I'm VERY impressed with your work. Each time I think I've got all the guns I need - you've just added one more that I really "need"

    I see you're in N. Fla - I'm just across the line in Baldwin county.

    Ken H>
    Come on down sometime, you can inspect the ladybug in person and try shooting it..
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  4. #64
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    Awesome development! Great read, too. Could you use small rifle standard or magnum primers? It doesn't seem like pressures would be an issue. Specs for outside dimensions are the same as pistol primers.
    Sometimes life taps you on the shoulder and reminds you it's a one way street. Jim Morris

  5. #65
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    An interesting idea.
    It's got me to thinking about a .25 acp necked down to .17 while leaving the rest of the case intact. In other words, a bottle-neck case. I figure it's already been done, but would be kind of cute to experiment with.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by David2011 View Post
    Awesome development! Great read, too. Could you use small rifle standard or magnum primers? It doesn't seem like pressures would be an issue. Specs for outside dimensions are the same as pistol primers.
    I'm sure you could use any of the small primers. I'm using up an old stock of CCI SP primers and they've been working well enough that I haven't experimented with anything else. I have no idea on pressures, but in the tiny case they're more likely to spike, so care would be required when changing anything like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by fast ronnie View Post
    An interesting idea.
    It's got me to thinking about a .25 acp necked down to .17 while leaving the rest of the case intact. In other words, a bottle-neck case. I figure it's already been done, but would be kind of cute to experiment with.
    Yup, it was discussed a little bit earlier in the thread, at least 2 wildcatters have necked the .25 down to .17. Though I know nothing of performance.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoZombies View Post
    That's a good thought, I'll see if I have some SP mag primers to try out.

    The bullets stopped at various places in the bore, and pushed out with little force. I was testing in a 16.25" barrel. In a 7" barrel they work fine, but aren't moving very fast.
    it seems Standard Small Pistol Primers will push your bullets more than 7" but less than 16.25"; so i would Hope Magnum Small Pistol, or Magnum Small Rifle, Primers would provide performance approaching .22BB RF or .22CB RF cartridges in your 16.25" barrel.

    Chev. William

  8. #68
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    That's awesome, NoZombies!

    I have the odd 22 barrel and a few barrel off-cuts from shortening that I have been wanting to use for something like that. A high velocity 22 air rifle pellet firing rifle for example, for where lethal range needs to be limited. Or just paper punching. I once loaded a 22 pellet in my hornet that had more impact effect than a 22 lr. The Ladybug should be just the ticket - and I do have a lathe.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chev. William View Post
    it seems Standard Small Pistol Primers will push your bullets more than 7" but less than 16.25"; so i would Hope Magnum Small Pistol, or Magnum Small Rifle, Primers would provide performance approaching .22BB RF or .22CB RF cartridges in your 16.25" barrel.

    Chev. William
    I think you're probably right, though to be fair the 7" barrel was an off-cut from a .22 WMR and has a looser bore compared to the contender barrel. I just haven't had time to experiment with other primers... hopefully in the next few weeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    That's awesome, NoZombies!

    I have the odd 22 barrel and a few barrel off-cuts from shortening that I have been wanting to use for something like that. A high velocity 22 air rifle pellet firing rifle for example, for where lethal range needs to be limited. Or just paper punching. I once loaded a 22 pellet in my hornet that had more impact effect than a 22 lr. The Ladybug should be just the ticket - and I do have a lathe.
    If you're interested in building one, let me know and I'll be happy to with info as I have the time. One other experiment you may like:

    A piece of off-cut .22 barrel with a short throat cut in for seating a bullet, and the 'chamber' reamed to accept a 209 shotgun primer does a pretty decent job of recreating the .22 CB cap, and will absolutely rocket a .22 pellet out of the barrel... turn one of those down to fit in a shotgun chamber, and have some fun!
    Nozombies.com Practical Zombie Survival

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  10. #70
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    NoZombies, why do you not live next door to me. I wish you lived next door. Oh the fun we would have.
    Stop being blinded by your own ignorance.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoZombies View Post

    If you're interested in building one, let me know and I'll be happy to with info as I have the time. One other experiment you may like:

    A piece of off-cut .22 barrel with a short throat cut in for seating a bullet, and the 'chamber' reamed to accept a 209 shotgun primer does a pretty decent job of recreating the .22 CB cap, and will absolutely rocket a .22 pellet out of the barrel... turn one of those down to fit in a shotgun chamber, and have some fun!
    I was thinking of a 410 shotgun insert. Now if I could make a 410 pellet ....

    My thinking with the barrel offcut is to mate the barrel onto a chamber so no throating of the bore would be required. It would also mean that any booboo's would be easily reversible.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outer Rondacker View Post
    NoZombies, why do you not live next door to me. I wish you lived next door. Oh the fun we would have.
    Yeah, me too. Both of you.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  13. #73
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoZombies View Post

    If you're interested in building one, let me know and I'll be happy to with info as I have the time.
    Thanks for the offer. At the moment I am still thinking along the lines of a cast boolit hornet, shooting heavies. I have a 14 twist 22 barrel (Toz) that I want to use.
    For the 22 pellet rifle I would use my Cooey barrel as this one is tight enough for the pellet head to ride the bore. I have a Checado barrel too that needs a purpose. If I could master casting such small pills I would like to do something like your 20gr ladybug with one of my offcuts, using the the barrel to chamber mating idea. We don't have too many 25 ACP's around in my parts. I should check the availability of cases. Failing a supply of cases, I see no reason not to neck down shortened hornet cases. Plenty of those around here.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outer Rondacker View Post
    NoZombies, why do you not live next door to me. I wish you lived next door. Oh the fun we would have.
    The place next door is for sale... It even has a decent view. I haven't walked through it though, so no idea on workshop space...

    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    Thanks for the offer. At the moment I am still thinking along the lines of a cast boolit hornet, shooting heavies. I have a 14 twist 22 barrel (Toz) that I want to use.
    For the 22 pellet rifle I would use my Cooey barrel as this one is tight enough for the pellet head to ride the bore. I have a Checado barrel too that needs a purpose. If I could master casting such small pills I would like to do something like your 20gr ladybug with one of my offcuts, using the the barrel to chamber mating idea. We don't have too many 25 ACP's around in my parts. I should check the availability of cases. Failing a supply of cases, I see no reason not to neck down shortened hornet cases. Plenty of those around here.
    Makes sense. I think either a 12 or 14 twist barrel would be ideal, as it would expand the usable bullet weights.

    Barring the availability of .25 acp brass, Hornet can be used, and it's actually what I made the first several cases from... So far all of my chambers have been cut with chucking reamers. In barrel stubs, I've used a .224 chucking reamer with the front edge softened to 'throat' the barrel to accept the bullets. So far, I haven't seen any accuracy issues that I think are from the way I'm cutting chambers.

    I've also been working on an improvement to the cartridge that I'll unveil after I do a bit more work on it. I'm willing to bet you guys will like it.
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  15. #75
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    I believe Midway Supply is carrying Jagemann Stamping made .25ACP empty cases and they DO On-Line orders.

    ADDED 20180404: Midway Supply currently is selling Hornady .25ACP emties in 200 count bags inside "Hornady Cartridge Cases" Red card stock packages. The sample I checked is .277" Dia. by .615" Long.

    "PPU" .25ACP Empty cases are also available by Mail via the Internet.

    Magtech, or CBC, .25ACP occasionally is available; but I have not seen it for the last year.

    If you have a CF Converted .25 Stevens Rifle, Outdoors Limited usually has PPU Loaded .25ACP for reasonable cost as a 1000 round order, or a slight premium for a 50 round box (shipping is cheaper per round at the 1000 piece order level).
    Sadly, California has Legislated to 'Close the Mail-Order Ammunition Market' here.

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 04-04-2018 at 10:37 PM.

  16. #76
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    Considering getting into forming my 'under size' .25ACP empties into "Ladybug" cases.
    It looks like a series of 7 hardened Steel Drill bushings of 1/2" OD and Length would be about $73.35 including sales tax and shipping, and blank die bodies about another $160 (PT&G @ $20 each for 8 plus shipping). then the time to machine the Blank dies to take the Bushings and threading the inside tops for Accessories/tool adapters would add only time.

    Starting with the .25ACP at .278" dia. then reducing it via Standard Bushing sizes to ~.250" dia. and final Custom Bushing to ~.244"-.246" final diameter. making a ".22 long rifle" length but ".22 WRF diameter" CF case for inside lube bullets.

    Sigh, Retired on fixed income makes this a "Long Term" kind of Project.

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 04-07-2018 at 01:14 AM. Reason: Replaced Estimates of costs with Actual cost information.

  17. #77
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    After checking my Funds this month I ordered several Steel (Rc61) Hardened Drill bushings from Mcmaster-Carr on line. these are a series of Standard Sizes down to .250" ID so I will eventually order a custom one for the last swaging size.
    Here is the list of sizes i ordered:
    "Line; Product Number; Ordered; Delivers; Price; Total.
    1; 8491A272; Press-Fit Drill Bushing, 0.25" ID, 1/2" OD, 1/2" Long 1 each; Apr 5; 6.45 each; $6.45.
    2; 8491A344; Press-Fit Drill Bushing, 0.25" ID, 1/2" OD, 1-3/8" Long 1 each; Apr 5; 12.07 each; $12.07.
    3; 8491A273; Press-Fit Drill Bushing, 0.257" ID, 1/2" OD, 1/2" Long 1 each; Apr 5; 9.12 each; $9.12.
    4; 8491A275; Press-Fit Drill Bushing, 0.2656" ID, 1/2" OD, 1/2" Long 1 each; Apr 5; 8.68 each; $8.68.
    5; 8491A651; Press-Fit Drill Bushing, 0.272" ID, 1/2" OD, 1/2" Long 1 each; Apr 5; 8.45 each; $8.45.
    6; 8491A145; Press-Fit Drill Bushing, 0.277" ID, 1/2" OD, 1/2" Long 1 each; Apr 5; 10.68 each; $10.68.
    7; 8491A188; Press-Fit Drill Bushing, 0.316" ID, 1/2" OD, 1/2" Long 1 each; Apr 5; 6.36 each; $6.36". "

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 04-07-2018 at 01:17 AM.

  18. #78
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    The Drill Bushings arrived Today!
    I Like McMaster-Carr as a supplier.
    The UPS shipping was about the same as the California Sales Tax!
    Using a .0001" resolution micrometer, they measure .5015" to.5016" outside diameter so a .500" reamed hole should be a interference Press fit.
    Chev. William

  19. #79
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    My thinking is to use the 1-3/8" long bushing of .250" ID to make a Seating Die. I can make a seating stem working tip form .250" drill Rod piece or a drill blank. The adjuster for it would be threaded and have a socket in its end to hold the tip. I am guessing I would use a 20 pitch thread for the adjuster, probably 7/16 inch Diameter. the tap drill is a "W" of .3860" diameter, just slightly larger than the 3/8" bore I was planning on, to leave support for the 1/2" OD drill bushings.

    Perhaps buying die blanks with a .30 Cal. Pilot hole would be a good idea as I could leave a larger end force support for the bushings and drill out above it for the Threading, leaving the support shoulder thickness at .30" ID.

    The Forming dies perhaps should be shortened to make their storage more compact; after all this is a Pistol Cartridge and the PT&G bodies are Rifle Cartridge Length.

    Chev. William

  20. #80
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    Found this thread late. . .my brain is spinning with the possibilities of this as a standardized round.

    1. We all tend to horde .22LR for the simple fact that we CAN'T reload it. This would make having a more reasonable pile of brass a practicality.

    2. The sport of BR-50 was discontinued largely because even the really good .22LR wasn't living up to Benchrest demands. Not having one side of the cartridge getting crushed on ignition has GOT to be good for accuracy potential. Taking things to the Benchrest or Olympic Smallbore level would require a lot of match-prep steps to brass, bullets, primer, lube, and powder selection, but I think there's HUGE potential here.

    3. The ability to dispense with heeled bullets raises interesting possibilities with jacketed, heavier weights, faster twists, custom throats, etc..., not all of which would work in a magazine, but since .22 singles shots have always been very much "a thing". . . Remember the Aguila .22 SSS (Sniper Sub Sonic) that was basically a .22 Short case with a 60 grain bullet extending the length out to LR dimensions? This could certainly go there.

    4. The ability to make it out of Hornet cases would indicate that a .22 WMR version is possible. A .22WRF version would, with a little ingenuity to create a CF conversion, get some old platforms economically shooting again.

    Intrigued. . .very intrigued. . .
    WWJMBD?

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check