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Thread: Introducing: The .22 ladybug

  1. #101
    Boolit Master
    Chev. William's Avatar
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    No Zombies,
    I believe that to date you have said the following are the dimensions of your Wildcat .22Ladybug (.22LB):
    Body Diameter = .247"
    Rim Diameter = .300"-.307" (Proposed range .290"-,307")
    Rim Thickness = .043" (Proposed range .032"-.045")
    Water Capacity = ~3.91 grains H2O
    Bullet Diameter = .223" or .224"
    Primer size (diameter) = .175" (small Pistol, or Rifle, size)

    Chamber Dimensions:
    Diameter (straight cylinder) = .251"
    Length from base datum = .635"
    Rim Rebate Diameter = .309"
    Rim Rebate Depth (from Base Datum) = .042"

    .22 LB Repeater Dimensions:
    (differences from .22LB)
    Rim Diameter = .278"
    Extractor Clearance Cut Diameter = .228"

    You have swaged .25ACP cases down using swaging dies of .263" and .246" diameters.

    Is my summary correct?
    Chev. William
    Added 20180501: Proposed rim dimension ranges added.
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 05-01-2018 at 04:10 PM.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chev. William View Post
    No Zombies,
    I believe that to date you have said the following are the dimensions of your Wildcat .22Ladybug (.22LB):
    Body Diameter = .247"
    Rim Diameter = .300"-.307"
    Rim Thickness = .043"
    Water Capacity = ~3.91 grains H2O
    Bullet Diameter = .223" or .224"
    Primer size (diameter) = .175" (small Pistol, or Rifle, size)

    Chamber Dimensions:
    Diameter (straight cylinder) = .251"
    Length from base datum = .635"
    Rim Rebate Diameter = .309"
    Rim Rebate Depth (from Base Datum) = .042"

    .22 LB Repeater Dimensions:
    (differences from .22LB)
    Rim Diameter = .278"
    Extractor Clearance Cut Diameter = .228"

    You have swaged .25ACP cases down using swaging dies of .263" and .246" diameters.

    Is my summary correct?
    Chev. William
    Chev. Those numbers look basically correct to me. I've experimented with some other intermediary sizing steps. At some point when I've got some more time, I'll get photos of the various tools that I've made or modified for the project.

    I'm also essentially moving all efforts towards the LB repeater, as it does everything the original LB does, but some things that it doesn't do (like feed through magazines). The only thing the original LB had going for it was the common shell holder, but since I've found a few sources for .22LR shell holders for reasonable prices, It's not enough of a benefit to make a difference.
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  3. #103
    Boolit Master
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    The SAAMI published maximum cartridge dimensions for the .25ACP indicate that the rim diameter is .302"(+0.0/-0.012") which indicates The Minimum SAAMI rim diameter is .290"; the rim thickness maximum is .043 with a (+0.0/-0.011") tolerance, or .032" minimum: the Extractor Clearance Cut diameter is shown as .252" (+0.0/-0.011"), or .241" minimum and cylinder length of .030" (+0.010/-0.0"), or .040 Maximum length; with a 20 Degree Half Angle taper up to case body diameter.
    I believe the 5.7x28mm case rim is a maximum of .307" according to CIP Drawings; with the thickness at .04488" rounded to .045".

    Accordingly, may I suggest the Rim diameter range for the ".22 Ladybug" be .307" maximum to .290" minimum and the thickness be .045" maximum to .032" minimum?

    This would make the task of forming by others for Single Shot use a little easier as the rims would all be as manufactured; rather than selected or turned to size.
    Further, the SAAMI minimum Extractor Clearance Cut diameter is slightly smaller than the Formed ".22 Ladybug" body diameter and would allow a final 'shearing/swaging' to final Base diameter. Much easier to implement than the Turning operation for many without a Lathe.

    The additional changes you find necessary for use in Repeaters would be "To Be Determined" at this time.

    As the ".22 Ladybug" or ".22 Long Rifle Center Fire" is stabilized in its dimensions, would you consider submitting it/them to "Ammoguide Interactive" with the Proposed dimensions and limits above?

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 05-21-2018 at 11:02 AM.

  4. #104
    Boolit Master
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    For this Months "Discretionary Funds", i purchased three 1/2-20 Taps, a Threading die, a thread chaser, plus 8 PT&G Blank Die Bodies pilot drilled for .311" cartridges.

    I plan to drill them 5/16" Through, with the top end drilled 7/16" and tapped 1/2-20UNF Thread.
    The bottom end wil be drilled and reamed to take the 1/2x1/2" drill bushings tightly; so as to retain them against swaged case extraction forces.

    Granger also Sells Hardened Steel Alloy Drill bushings and even listed ones in ."D" drill (.246") diameter. The ones I ordered from Granger came with Free Shipping from the Manufacturer as a "drop shipment"! That saved a lot of time by not having to go to Granger first before being reshipped to me.
    I now have on hand Hardened Alloy Steel Drill bushings in the Sizes needed to swage .25ACP cases down to .246"-.248" diameters and am waiting for the PT&G die bodies to arrive.
    Perhaps this weekend i wil get a chance to machine one or more die bodies to take the drill bushings, my Friends' shop work load permitting.

    Chev. William

  5. #105
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    Spent about 6 hours in my friends Special Effects shop Saturday drilling and reaming my 8 Blank dies
    To ready them for Tapping and for taking the 1/2"x 1/2" drill bushings.

    Next is to Tap them 1/2-20UNF; then Install the drill bushings.

    Tomorrow I will be helping my friend install an air conditioner and a refrigerator.
    Fair trade I think.
    Chev. William

    Added 20180507:
    Sunday morning was a successful trip to install the Refrigerator and Air Conditioner with my friend; we went to downtown Los Angeles, to the Studio lot where his special effects truck was parked and removed the failed ones and put in place the new ones. My friend will Plug them in and start running them Monday as they Need a time for the refrigerant compressor oil to settle back into proper locations before Running them.

    Drat! Sunday afternoon I tried out one of the Drill Bushing swaging dies, the "I" (.272") diameter one, and found out a simple press fit is not enough to retain the Drill Bushing when removing the swaged case from the Bushing!

    Since I machined all of the bodies to the same depth, I will need to go back and cut the bushing seats deeper; then machine a narrow 'lip' around the bushing seat that I can fold over the end of the bushing to lock it in place.

    This will need to await another 'availability' of my friends' shop Lathe.

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 05-07-2018 at 11:14 AM. Reason: added new information

  6. #106
    Boolit Master
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    I had two Die bodies that were cut slightly deep for the Drill bushings so the bushing was recessed slightly. These two were candidates for an experiment that turned out well. I used a center punch to 'stake' the Edge fo the Die body inward over the end of the bushing; then used a pin punch to further move die body over the edge of the bushing. This seems to work as a 'test Swage case' was driven out without bringing the bushing with it.
    I am thinking about a 1/32 inch deeper bushing seat and a machined 1/32 inch high by 1/32 Wide lip be machined into the die body bottom end.
    This lip would be peened over the bushing end and worked down flat with the remainder of the die body face to lock the Bushing in place for swaging operations and removal of swaged case bodies.

    A side note: May 8th I received an emergency and short warning work assignment call from my Union Dispatcher to operate a portable (Tow Plant) Generator on Location in Marina Del Rey at about 1300 for a Start of work at 1630. I told the dispatcher I would be late arriving but would answer the call; so got into work clothes, packed a Lunch cooler, put my dogs outside, and started out, with a stop to fill my work truck gas tank. Traffic went 'well' until about Olympic and the I-405 ramps where it slowed to a first gear crawl and remained at that speed until I exited onto the 90 freeway heading for the Beach and Marina Harbor. I finally Arrived At the Production company Base Camp near 'Fisherman's Village' at about 1700 and checked in with the transportation coordinator.
    It turned out the Generator was loaded on a Surplus LCT (Landing Craft Tank) harbor work boat/tug along with a 70' reach Boom type 'condor' man-lift rigged with two 18,000 watt Movie High frequency Arc lights.

    I spent the Night tending the generator in the middle of the Harbor.

    We returned to the Boat launch ramp and unloaded the equipment after Sunrise, and returned to the base camp at 0700 May 9th. So that was 'A Day's Work for a Day's Pay'; 14 hours on duty, mostly standing, for a 75 year old Union 'Retired' Member.

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 05-19-2018 at 09:10 AM. Reason: Corrected Typo. Errors

  7. #107
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    Chev,

    I'll have to grab photos sometime later, but I've made dies in the past for using drill bushings, and what I did was bore the die for a snug slip fit, then drill for a set screw, and grind an angled flat on the drill bushing. The angled flat is ground so that as any pressure is put on the bushing to force it out, it tightens more against the set screw. It makes things a lot easier, and allows a single die body to be used with multiple drill bushings.

    Glad you're getting some time to work on this, I've been up to my eyeballs in other stuff, and haven't had a spare minute in a while. Hopefully that'll all settle down next week and I'll be able to spend a little time on a couple of things I've been wanting to do for the project.
    Nozombies.com Practical Zombie Survival

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  8. #108
    Boolit Master
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    NoZombies,
    Thank you for the Idea about a set screw and Ground 'flat' to lock Bushing into die body; I will see if I can do that with the 'shop tools' available to me in my friends Special Effects Shop.

    Re the Work 'day': Standing on the slightly rocking 'well deck' most of the night gave me sore leg muscles for the next two days afterward, I have not needed to Stand for Long periods like that since I retired from the military at Age 60. That 'well deck' also had welded in place ~3/4x3/4 inch 'traction bars' about every 8 inches running across the boat, beam to beam, inside the sloping side walls, minus a short distance on each side (to allow water drainage to the low point of the deck). Made any Movement about the 'well deck' more difficult.
    Chev. William

  9. #109
    Boolit Master
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    Grumble, Grumble, Grumble. I forgot to Lube the cases before Swaging the .25ACP cases in a Hardened Steel Alloy Drill bushing die and my 45th case Stuck hard Enough to Have the Base of the Brass case 'punch out' when I went to drive the case out of the die.
    Memo to Self: Lube Brass cases Before Swaging/Sizing them.
    Now I have a "I" size (.272" Diameter) Die to get the now scrap stuck case out of and I did not have an "I "Drill bit on hand at home.
    I will need to Order a Drill Bit (probably Two; so I will have a 'spare'): another 'Granger' order i think is in the works for me.
    I will also try my Friend with the Special Effects Shop this weekend to see i fhe happens to have an "I" Drill bit on hand.

    Future Item is to find and order some "Imperial Sizing Wax/Case Lube" before trying to swage/size any more of these Plain Brass .25ACP cases down. I guess I have Been 'Spoiled by the FNB 5.7x28mm Polymer coated cases ease of swaging/sizing in my Carbide Ring Forming dies.
    Too bad Lee does not make a suitable Carbide Ring sizing die to have "opened' for use in making the 'Ladybug' cases.

    As to alternative To the Drill Bushing retention system trial; I have not yet either tried To hold a Hardened Alloy Steel Drill Bushing to Grind a Tapered Flat on it s side nor Drilled and Tapped a die body for a Set Screw to hold one in place.
    Doing the Lathe work so far seems to indicate the PT&G die bodies are possibly Heat treated as received to some level above Annealed/Normalized; as the Machining tools and die bodies get 'cutting lube smoking hot' in drilling or reaming so far. Filing on them also indicates something more than annealed/normalized hardness.

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 05-19-2018 at 02:32 PM.

  10. #110
    Boolit Master
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    Just a short update:

    Ive been too busy to get much done, but in between the middle of the night bottles and such, I've managed to spend a few minutes working on it.

    First, I've been experimenting with shorter and longer versions of the ladybug. I didn't think to get photos of the longer cases, (made from hornet brass) but the shorter cases have been interesting:



    From L-R Ladybug repeater at .625", the same at .500" and then .400".

    With 0.4 grains of TG the .400 cases is pretty funny, the bullets are moving at about 600 FPS, and you can watch them on the way to the target through the scope.

    And someone earlier had asked about the H&A that I mentioned. This is it:

    Nozombies.com Practical Zombie Survival

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  11. #111
    Boolit Master
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    intriguing short case lengths you are investigating.
    for .400" +/-.030":
    Cartridge Name; Bullet Diameter; Shoulder Width; Body Width; Rim Width; Case Length; Case Capacity.
    2.7mm Kolibri; .105; .140; .140; .140; .370; 1.0 .
    .32 Extra Short RF; .312; .318; .318; .377; .398; 5.7 .
    4.25mm Liliput; .167; .198; .198; .198; .410; 2.3 .
    .22 CB Cap; .222; .224; .225; .276; .420; 3.0 .
    .22 Short; .223; .226; .226; .278; .421; 3.1 .

    for .500' +/-.030":
    None found

    for .600" +/-.030":
    .32 Short RF; .312; .318; .318; .377; .575; 8.2 .
    .22 Long; .223; .224; .225; .276; .590; 4.2 .
    .22 CB Long; .223 ; .224; .225; .276; .597; 4.3 .
    .25 Stevens Short; .251; .276; .276; .333; .600; 6.5 .
    .32 Smith & Wesson; .312; .339; .339; .378; .605; 9.9 .
    .22 Long Rifle; .223; .226; .226; .278; .613; 4.4 .
    .10 Eichelberger Long Rifle;.103; .224; .225; .276; .615; 3.6 .
    .22 Epperson Cricket/.22 Pokey;.222;.278; .278; .302; .615; 6.5 .
    .25 Automatic; .250; .278; .278; .302; .615; 6.7 .
    .17 Aguila; .172; .226; .226; .278; .618; 4.2 .

    The .400" cae length has a few calibers using that case length.
    It seems .500" case length is skipped for cartridges listed in the "Ammoguide Interactive" data base so far.
    the .600" case length is somewhat popular with several calibers using that length.

    For your stated use; the .400" case length with 0.4 grains of Tightwad giving about 600fps should be a Very Quiet cartridge. Was that with the 20 grain or the 40 grain bullet?

    I have about 8ea ".32 Extra Short CF" cases made from .32 S&W Short swaged down in diameter and trimmed to length. Not easy to reload as the bullet seating is not easy to get accurate for Overall Length. I used 90 grain Accurate Mold Heeled bullets, the same onesI bought for my .32 Colt Long case loading.

    Chev. William

  12. #112
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    Monday Morning Post after a 'successful' Sunday in my Friend's Special Effects Shop.
    An "I" drill bit was available, and solved the 'Stuck Case' in my Drill Bushing Swaging die Successfully.
    I got All of my 'Blank Die' bodies in this experiment (9 PT&G and 1 Lee) drilled and Tapped to 1/2-20UNF in the tops and the Bottoms reamed out for 1/2"ODx1/2"L Drill Bushing seats.

    I also Turned the Shanks of two "AN8-12A" and one "AN8-10A" Aircraft Bolts down to clear The Threads in my dies Bodies; these are to make Adjustable Seating Punch holders later.

    My friend and I also enjoyed an 'Inexpensive' Lunch out of the shop at a Local 'fast food' Place ("Queen's"). I had a 'Treat' in the form of a Hot Pastrami sandwich and small order of 'French Fries; i saved half of the sandwich for later and ate it as my dinner Sunday Evening.

    More Salt than normal for my diet; but Oh So Tasty!

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 05-21-2018 at 01:10 PM. Reason: Corrected Punctuation error

  13. #113
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    Hi Chev.William.Don`t it just seem like that everything a person really enjoys any more
    is either Illeagle,immoral or fattening?
    Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
    Leo
    People never lie so much as after a hunt,during a war,or before an election.
    Otto von Bismarck

  14. #114
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodbutcher View Post
    Hi Chev.William.Don`t it just seem like that everything a person really enjoys any more
    is either Illeagle,immoral or fattening?
    Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
    Leo
    It does seem that way Nowadays, truly does.
    Even Driving 'just for the fun of it' strains my budget now.
    Chev. William

  15. #115
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    Congrats that is so inovative! I always wanted to do something special like that, but never found the time. Hats off to you!
    Even a blind squirrel gets a nut once in awhile
    NRA Benefactor 2016

  16. #116
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catpop View Post
    Congrats that is so inovative! I always wanted to do something special like that, but never found the time. Hats off to you!
    Thanks!

    It's been fun, and when I have more time, I expect it to become even more fun!
    Nozombies.com Practical Zombie Survival

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  17. #117
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    "Middle of the Night Bottles" sounds like a New Born addition to your Family.
    If so, I guess your "Free" time will be 'scarce' for a couple of years yet.

    Chuckling,
    Chev. William

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chev. William View Post
    "Middle of the Night Bottles" sounds like a New Born addition to your Family.
    If so, I guess your "Free" time will be 'scarce' for a couple of years yet.

    Chuckling,
    Chev. William
    Yeah, we have 2 in diapers in the house. I'm sure that someone is getting some sleep in the house, I'm just not sure who it is... or when.
    Nozombies.com Practical Zombie Survival

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  19. #119
    Boolit Master
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    We did the "serial twins" thing, they are 16 months apart. Only one slept in our house was the cat!
    You get a chamber cut in that 67 yet?
    “You don’t practice until you get it right. You practice until you can’t get it wrong.” Jason Elam, All-Pro kicker, Denver Broncos

  20. #120
    Boolit Master
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    Wednesday Evening I got 60 more .25ACP cases through The first Swage Stage without any problems by wiping each case with an oily cleaning patch.
    So my Stuck Case was my fault, for not lubing the cases before Swaging them.
    I got spoiled i guess by the FN polymer coating on their 5.7x28mm cases and Carbide Ring swaging dies.

    The Last few days here have been Cloudy and Cool (below Average for late May) and it looks like the trend will continue through the memorial Day weekend.
    Cool enough so my two dogs do Not want to go outside until about Noon.

    Chev. William

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check