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Thread: Introducing: The .22 ladybug

  1. #121
    Boolit Bub
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    This is a great concept I've thought about before, but never took it farther - great work. Nooowww I just have to find some time. All my kids are long since out of diapers - but they still keep me up at night.

    I'll try and start in on one of these conversions before the Fall, now that it has my attention.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by rking22 View Post
    We did the "serial twins" thing, they are 16 months apart. Only one slept in our house was the cat!
    You get a chamber cut in that 67 yet?
    Ours are a little further apart, so sometime this summer the older one should be out of diapers, or at least I'm hoping so...

    I managed to assemble the 67, but I haven't made any further progress on it. I'm hoping this long weekend it might happen, since the in-laws are coming over to 'spend time' with the baby... We'll see how that goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthCoastBigBore View Post
    This is a great concept I've thought about before, but never took it farther - great work. Nooowww I just have to find some time. All my kids are long since out of diapers - but they still keep me up at night.

    I'll try and start in on one of these conversions before the Fall, now that it has my attention.
    Welcome aboard. I'm not moving this forward as fast as I'd like, but even the little bit I have done has been fun!

    The nice thing is that with a can, it's quiet enough I can shoot out of an open window into the back yard while the girls are napping (on the rare occasion that they nap at the same time) Otherwise I'd make no progress at all!
    Nozombies.com Practical Zombie Survival

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  3. #123
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    Friday Afternoon the Mails brought me some more Drill bushings so I now have a 'full set' of swaging dies to Take .25ACP, of .278" diameter, down to .22 Ladybug CF of .247" diameter!

    I swaged my first case all the way to .247" diameter in steps using, in order, drill bushings of .277", .272", .2656", .257", .250", and .246".
    I am going to add a .261" step to the sequence as it seems the .2656"-.257" step is slightly too much as it took more effort than the other steps.

    It appears I will need to turn the displaced Metal ring off the .247" diameter body as it was Smaller than the Extractor Clearance Cut (nominal .250" diameter) and is still strongly Adherent to the Case.

    Progress IS Still Being Made!

    This weekend I am taking time to attend the "Los Angeles Live Steam Railroad Museum Memorial Weekend Meet" in Griffith Park herein Los Angeles,CA. Many Live Steam model Locomotives from 3/4" to the foot through 3-3/4" to the foot Scale are being run this weekend.

    It started Friday Afternoon with a Spaghetti dinner and the Smell of burning COAL in the fireboxes of warming up locomotives. Night running commenced at Dark after Sunset and the Evening "Gloaming". It is an experience to ride behind one of them around the 6,000 ft long 7.50" gauge main line at night with the Working light Signals changing aspect as we pass them. The Glow of the Headlight off teh trees and brush along side the Right of way with the Sound of the Locomotive exhaust changing as we climb and descend grades. The Vibration of wheels on Rail joints and turnout frogs bring back memories of Full Size Train Rides I enjoyed in the past.
    Saturday, was more of The same; but with an evening of BBQ Dinner and a Swing Band for evening entertainment for those not either running nor riding the Trains. Ice Cream made using a Model Steam Tractor to power a 6qt Freezer (Salt,Ice, and brine for the freezing bath) called "Steam cream" by the makers.
    Sunday Still More of the same with Vehicle Parking full and Vehicles parked along both sides of Zoo Drive for about a quarter Mile in Both directions.


    Chev. William
    ADDED 20180528: Sunday evening I was able to get use of my Friend's Special Effects Shop Lathe and tried to turn the ring of displace brass of my First swaged .22 Ladybug Case with a Failure as a result. The case 'popped out' of the Six Jaw Chuck about half way through my turning operation resulting in dented and bent body to the case. "OH Fudge!" -- Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 06-05-2018 at 09:44 PM. Reason: Corrected typo. errors and added notes.

  4. #124
    Boolit Master
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    Late last week I "Stuck" another case in one of my Drill bushing swaging dies; this time it was the .261" ("G") size one. Sunday I was able to remove the "Stuck" case by drilling it out using my friends Lathe.

    Waiting for some items to arrive that were purchased off of Ebay. A 5C chucking adapter holder, and some 5C work stops. Frustrating that I could NOT find equivalents in 3C size, even at Commercial Tool Supply houses.
    The Commercial Tool Supply houses prices for The 5C items were Much Higher than those I paid by searching Ebay.

    Chev. William

  5. #125
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    A Little Progress on my Experiment in forming .22 Ladybug cases from .25ACP cases; I have 49 of a starting lot of 60 cases swaged down to .257" diameter.

    My 'Losses' are attributed to 'learning Errors' on my part in learning to use these Drill Bushing derived swaging dies effectively.
    - Three were from failure to 'catch' the extracted swaged case as it exited the die, they were "lost" when they bounce into some dark and unexposed corner of my 'Shop' (outside Patio reloading 'Shop').
    - Eight were from my failures to insure the case was accurately Aligned with the Drill Bushing mouth and resulted in either a crushed case or a case with a deep edge crimp .
    - Three were 'Stuck' Cases from my Case 'lube' process failures; I did not use enough 'lube'.
    - The remainder were from ' over swaging' errors of adjustment of the Dies resulting in 'coining the rims thin and over diameter.

    I do not yet have adjustment locking ring nuts for the die bodies as none came with the Blank Die bodies from PT&G Aviation 'Shear Nuts' are a possibility; but are much thicker than what I would like.
    Ordering some as 'replacements' from a Commercial die maker such as Lee, RCBS, Hornady, Reading, ect. is still a future option.

    I am holding off on the next swaging step, to .250" case body diameter, until I can make the tools/jigs to machine the Extractor Clearance cuts down in diameter to at least .244" so ther is a 'shear point' on the body for the displaced brass 'ring' that is occurring from the small radius at the mouth of the Drill bushings. Past swaging experience has shown me that a slight taper 'lead' in the mouth of the 'swaging die' greatly reduces this 'ring' as it give a gentler and smoother forming of the Brass down to the new diameter. Using many closely spaced swaging steps also reduces the size of the 'ring' as the difference between the starting and ending diameter at each step is smaller; so the radius at he mouth is less steeply forming the case brass.

    One consideration in my making tools in my friends lathe is that it is NOT fitted with travel readouts; so the 'long axis' is by guess and by feel as to face cut depths. The cross axis is fitted with a marked dial so it is much more repeatable in it setting for diameter cuts.

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 06-08-2018 at 12:51 PM.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chev. William View Post
    A Little Progress on my Experiment in forming .22 Ladybug cases from .25ACP cases; I have 49 of a starting lot of 60 cases swaged down to .257" diameter.

    My 'Losses' are attributed to 'learning Errors' on my part in learning to use these Drill Bushing derived swaging dies effectively.
    - Three were from failure to 'catch' the extracted swaged case as it exited the die, they were "lost" when they bounce into some dark and unexposed corner of my 'Shop' (outside Patio reloading 'Shop').
    - Eight were from my failures to insure the case was accurately Aligned with the Drill Bushing mouth and resulted in either a crushed case or a case with a deep edge crimp .
    - Three were 'Stuck' Cases from my Case 'lube' process failures; I did not use enough 'lube'.
    - The remainder were from ' over swaging' errors of adjustment of the Dies resulting in 'coining the rims thin and over diameter.

    I do not yet have adjustment locking ring nuts for the die bodies as none came with the Blank Die bodies from PT&G Aviation 'Shear Nuts' are a possibility; but are much thicker than what I would like.
    Ordering some as 'replacements' from a Commercial die maker such as Lee, RCBS, Hornady, Reading, ect. is still a future option.

    I am holding off on the next swaging step, to .250" case body diameter, until I can make the tools/jigs to machine the Extractor Clearance cuts down in diameter to at least .244" so ther is a 'shear point' on the body for the displaced brass 'ring' that is occurring from the small radius at the mouth of the Drill bushings. Past swaging experience has shown me that a slight taper 'lead' in the mouth of the 'swaging die' greatly reduces this 'ring' as it give a gentler and smoother forming of the Brass down to the new diameter. Using many closely spaced swaging steps also reduces the size of the 'ring' as the difference between the starting and ending diameter at each step is smaller; so the radius at he mouth is less steeply forming the case brass.

    One consideration in my making tools in my friends lathe is that it is NOT fitted with travel readouts; so the 'long axis' is by guess and by feel as to face cut depths. The cross axis is fitted with a marked dial so it is much more repeatable in it setting for diameter cuts.

    Chev. William
    Chev,

    I've been experimenting with another die design that's showing promise. I'm using a a die with a very short "ring" section and a rounded leade. It's so effective that I'm able to size down in a single step from .278(ish) to .245. It ejects more easily as well due to the reduced friction. I'm still doing the lathe work for the rims and extractor cut, and as a result, taking the last bit off of the web that doesn't fit into the die due to the lead isn't an issue.

    The reduced friction also reduces the sizing effort required, and I checked the setup on my RCII and it was a little more effort than FL resizing some rifle rounds, but less than some.

    When I have a chance, I'll cut a die for the swaging press that will take advantage of the 'small ring' concept and see how that works out. In the mean time, I'm back to knocking the sized cases out of the die with a mallet and a punch.

    Interestingly, by swaging in a single step, it also increases the length of the resulting brass. I'm having to trim more off to get to the OAL of .625, and if I needed to, it looks like I could trim most of them at .635 without issue.
    Nozombies.com Practical Zombie Survival

    I collect all things .32. If you have something you don't need, please let me know!

  7. #127
    Boolit Master
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    And because everybody likes pictures:

    Nozombies.com Practical Zombie Survival

    I collect all things .32. If you have something you don't need, please let me know!

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoZombies View Post
    Chev,

    I've been experimenting with another die design that's showing promise. I'm using a a die with a very short "ring" section and a rounded leade. It's so effective that I'm able to size down in a single step from .278(ish) to .245. It ejects more easily as well due to the reduced friction. I'm still doing the lathe work for the rims and extractor cut, and as a result, taking the last bit off of the web that doesn't fit into the die due to the lead isn't an issue.

    The reduced friction also reduces the sizing effort required, and I checked the setup on my RCII and it was a little more effort than FL resizing some rifle rounds, but less than some.

    When I have a chance, I'll cut a die for the swaging press that will take advantage of the 'small ring' concept and see how that works out. In the mean time, I'm back to knocking the sized cases out of the die with a mallet and a punch.

    Interestingly, by swaging in a single step, it also increases the length of the resulting brass. I'm having to trim more off to get to the OAL of .625, and if I needed to, it looks like I could trim most of them at .635 without issue.
    NoZombies,

    That sounds like a very good Idea for the Future Carbide Ring Die(s) you were planning.

    Most Carbide Ring type of dies I have used previously use a Radius on the entry Edge feeding into a Short Shallow Tapered portion before the actual Lapped Sizing Bore. This seems to both minimize the amount of 'Displaced' Brass carried along by The Mouth to the end of the Stroke and Maximize the Amount of the 'Length Growth' of resized / swaged Cases.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 06-13-2018 at 10:40 PM.

  9. #129
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    I have been working on a similar project for a while. I posted it under the title 221 Askins.
    He had the idea first a long time ago and if it wasn’t for a bunch of cry babies to the NRA and the NRA giving into them the cartridge may have a production item today!
    I made 10 cases the hard way with a 1/2 ton arbor press and a home made die.the sharp edge of the mouth cut a ring of brass from the web area.
    My objective was to produce a reloadable centerfire equal to a 22 LR and also a reloadable version of the Aquila 22 Colibre!
    I hade a bolt action 410 so I took a short piece of a Ruger 10/22 Barrel and turned it to the dimensions of a 410 shell and put a 22 pellet in a primed case.
    I also have a Hopkins and Allen single shot rifle I plan to use to make a complete rifle but moved a little over a year ago and I am still trying to get organized and find things.
    My shop is an oven in the summer and a freezer in the winter so my shop time is limited.
    Congrats on beating me to working firearms and sharing your progress with us!
    I hope to be able to get to work on that project again but I just bought a 22 Hornet to down load and need to make a “M” die and a set of 22 cal swaging dies for my Herters 9 ton press to make some light bullets!

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoZombies View Post
    Well, I tried the primer only loads, and they were disappointing, I tried 3 in the contender, and each one got stuck in the bore. Easy enough to push out, but still no fun. I haven't tried magnum primers, but I think that experiment is done for now. I'll try a half a grain next time.
    Try 22 cal pellets!

  11. #131
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    Deltaenterprises,
    I read your ".221 Askins" Thread, all of it, and enjoyed the information presented.
    Perhaps you will convert the information into suitable submission to "Ammoguide Interactive" to add the 221 Askins to their Cartridge Master Data Base.
    Get the cartridge recorde with a case diagram and the Background history of it and your modern work in making a duplicate with what i available now.
    Chev. William

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chev. William View Post
    Deltaenterprises,
    I read your ".221 Askins" Thread, all of it, and enjoyed the information presented.
    Perhaps you will convert the information into suitable submission to "Ammoguide Interactive" to add the 221 Askins to their Cartridge Master Data Base.
    Get the cartridge recorde with a case diagram and the Background history of it and your modern work in making a duplicate with what i available now.
    Chev. William
    I would not want to deprive No Zombies of any credit for actually finishing his project, but Col Askins did conceive the cartridge before any of us were a twinkle in our fathers eye!
    I really like the second version that will work in magazines and possibly semi automatics!
    Your Info about the rim of one case fitting into the extractor groove of the one below it was very helpful to me. I was planning a single shot rifle and maybe a revolver but with a reduced rim and deeper extractor groove possibilities are unlimited!lever actions, bolt actions and pump actions will be possible conversions also!
    The initial cost of factory ammunition will be high but as it becomes more popular the cost will drop.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltaenterprizes View Post
    I would not want to deprive No Zombies of any credit for actually finishing his project, but Col Askins did conceive the cartridge before any of us were a twinkle in our fathers eye!
    I really like the second version that will work in magazines and possibly semi automatics!
    Your Info about the rim of one case fitting into the extractor groove of the one below it was very helpful to me. I was planning a single shot rifle and maybe a revolver but with a reduced rim and deeper extractor groove possibilities are unlimited!lever actions, bolt actions and pump actions will be possible conversions also!
    The initial cost of factory ammunition will be high but as it becomes more popular the cost will drop.
    In my Opinion, the ".221 Askins", the ".22 Ladybug", and the ".22 Ladybug Repeater" are three different (although very similar) cartridge Designs and executions.

    From the information provided; it seems the ".221 Askins" was sized, and made, to use lead Heeled bullets 'Exactly' like the .22LR Rimfire but using a Centerfire primer.

    Again from the Information provided; it seems the ".22 Ladybug" is designed, sized, and made to use inside lube .22 Lead bullets (no Heel) in a slightly larger, than .22LR rim and body, case. In my opinion, the ".22 Ladybug" is a Very Good, relatively easy to make, Cartridge design that will feed and fire in SOME repeaters And MOST single shot or manual single feed Actions.
    Chambering is mostly done to date with 'chucking reamers' not dedicated Chambering reamers.

    And further, it seems the ".22 Ladybug-Repeater" is designed with a .22LR rim Diameter and thickness, longer Extractor Clearance Cut (ECC) , and close to .22WRF Body diameter with an Inside lube bullet. The Rim and ECC make the cartridge compatible with multiple different magazine and semi-Automatic actions that may be easily converted To use of it.

    There are a couple of 'hybrids' that may be considered later:
    - A Case adapted to fit the Remington Mode 16 .22 Semi-Automatic rifle which used a .245" diameter Body .663" long with a 45 grain bullet. Drawing from Ammoguide.com

    - A Case adapted to the Winchester 1903 Semi-Automatic rifle which used a .250" diameter Body .665" long with a 45 grain bullet. Drawin gfrom Ammoguide.com

    Both of these variants can be made from the 'Ladybug' design with minor process changes.
    They would require a modification to the particular rifles to CF from RF ignition; but I currently believe that could be done in a 'reversible manor' to retain collector value while allowing actual shooting with modern custom hand loads.

    Best Regards,
    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; 06-14-2018 at 10:51 PM.

  14. #134
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    I did not know that the 221 Askins used a heeled bullet, thanks for the info.
    I was planning to use inside lubricated bullets also!
    I just wanted to give credit to Askins for thinking of the concept first!

  15. #135
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    the Quotation of Col. Askins description of the development said he 'pulled .22LR bullets to use in his (wildcat)' Cartridges.
    The .22LR uses a Heeled and Outside Lubed 40 grain Lead Bullet.

    Both the Remington and Winchester Cartridges, I believe, used an Inside Lubed Bullet of .222" or .223" diameter.
    Much 'cleaner' for cycling through the Semi-Automatic actions.

    Chev. William
    Last edited by Chev. William; Yesterday at 10:04 AM.

  16. #136
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    .221 askins and 5.5 Velo Dog case Drawings.

    I found what I believe to be sufficient information to make a Reconstruction drawing of both the 1935 '5.5 Velo Dog' and '.221 Askins' cartridge cases in my Auto CAD 2000 software.

    221 Askins V1 A NC Model (1).pdf This is a drawing of both the 'parent' 5.5 Velo Dog and the .221 Askins derived from it and are based upon both Col. Askins comments as Quotedby others and upon information contained in "Textbook of Firearms Investigation, Identification and Evidence" by Major Julian S. Hatcher and Published by Small Arms Technical Publishing Company, copyrighted 1935.

    I believe both cartridges used 'Small Pistol' Boxer Primers.

    The 5.5 Velo Dog used a Jacketed 45 Grain bullet of .48" long, overall Cartridge length of 1.35" and Muzzle Velocity from 2" barrel of 760fps with Muzzle energy of 56 ft. lbs. Contemporary size information for bullet diameter indicates it was about .224".

    The .221 Askins used a Cast Lead 40 grain bullet, overall cartridge length of .995", case length of .613" (same as contemporary .22LR Rimfire) and loaded to best Target use velocities that cycled the Colt 'Woodsman' semi-automatic Target pistol that was modified to utilize the Cartridge. Again, contemporary size information for bullet diameter indicates it was of about .224" diameter.

    The drawing was made using AutoCAD 2000 software and converted from .dwg format into a PDF file via CutePDF software.

    i believe NoZombies has pretty much copied the .221 Askins, although slightly longer than the original, with his .22 Ladybug design IF it is left at the .250" diameter body stage. This is based upon the J.S.Hatcher information as to measured 5.5 Velo Dog case and cartridge dimensions.

    The Possibility exists that Col. Askins used dies that resized the cases slightly smaller than this sow perhaps .246" diameter is not improbable for .221 Askins as loaded by the Col.

    Chev. William

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check