Graf & SonsMidSouth Shooters SupplyLee PrecisionInline Fabrication
StainLess Steel MediaTitan ReloadingADvertise hereRotoMetals2

Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: Wad that imparts spin on a slug....like ball point pen clicker mechanism

  1. #1

    Wad that imparts spin on a slug....like ball point pen clicker mechanism

    If you really only need 1:112" twist (or thereabouts), could the forward motion of a wad be translated to angluar motion of a slug? Could there be enough imparted that the slug would begin to spin and remain spinning with the angular momentum.

    After all...wouldn't a 45 degree angle give 50% forward and 50% rotational force (obviously you wouldn't need that much) initially.


    Just for discussion....thoughts?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	maxresdefault.jpg 
Views:	11 
Size:	28.7 KB 
ID:	215945  

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Castlegar, B.C., Canada
    Posts
    5,673
    I strongly suspect that bore friction would stop the rotation dead in its tracks after just a few inches in the barrel unless the slug was undersize in which case it would rattle down the bore.

    A rifled choke tube of the proper configuration is likely the best solution. Rifled chokes worked in the H&H Paradox guns and many others quite well. Modern rifled choke tubes however have shallow, fast twist rifling (like 1:35") suited to sabot slugs not full bore slugs... though some people report good accuracy using rifled choke tubes.

    You are absolutely correct in that large bore round balls and "square" slugs do not require much twist to stabilize the ball or slug. I have built a rifling machine to produce 1:72" twist rifling but got stalled out and have not finished my rifled choke tube. The plan is deep wide grooved, slow twist rifling. 1:72" is actually fast for a 12 ga. ball but I don't think it is too fast and it allows a longer slug to be used as well.

    I am working my way back around to it.

    Longbow

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    The Pacific NorthWet
    Posts
    747
    I'm not sure that the spin wouldn't just spin the wad around the slug because the inertia of the slug is FAR more than that of the wad; Seems easier to me to get a rifled barrel for your shotgun, if you really need a spun slug.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    St.Germain, WI
    Posts
    422
    Newton's laws are tough to beat.
    The only amendment the Democrats support is the 5th.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master



    jmort's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Color Me Gone
    Posts
    7,249
    "for Rifled Barrel Shotguns for Best Accuracy

    12ga-two-empty-op.jpg
    Sabot Pressure Wad, 12 ga - EMPTY (20 wads/bag)
    SKU: Z12-SPW-B
    Outside Dia.: 0.727 cal. solid wall sabot w/double chevrons
    Length: 0.620 inches
    Cavity Depth: 0.50 inches
    Weight: 70 grains
    The 12 Gauge SPW can be loaded with a pure lead .50 caliber factory bullet or one of your own casting.

    Bullets that are jacketed or coated will not be effective due to their inability to set back in the splines for grip to get the full rotational spin."
    http://slugsrus.com/12-GA-SPW.html
    "Had his shooting been as good as his running, he might have given a better account of himself."
    James. C. Henderson

  6. #6
    Well my first thought was in terms I wouldn't really have wanted to express here... I'm really not like that. But then I thought the Courtier cartridge, which is illustrated and evaluated in General Journeé's "Tir des fusils de chasse". It was a rifled cartridge case, and the results, while certainly not outstanding, were a significant improvement on a smoothbore slug gun. The greatest accuracy was obtained at only about 500 ft./sec., and at about 800 he claimed an average error of 2½in. and a total group of 12in. (I translate the figuresfrom those foreign things.)

    There were obvious snags. The first is probably how expensive and troublesome it would be. There was also great difficulty in extracting the fired case, often requiring the use of a rod, possibly because it appears to have had a tubular rifled liner inside an ordinary shotgun case. The bullet was a very ordinary minié ball with a hollow base, and the grooves must have allowed an escape of gas. Besides a tendency to lose pressure and lead the bore (not too bad if you only want one deer), the bullet spun clockwise by the rifling must have been unspun anticlockwise by gas pressure on the front edges of those grooves. This may account for high pressure being so harmful, and it might have worked better with a solid brass case, flat-based bullet and a thick wad or grease cookie to seal the grooves in the bullet.

    Be that as it may, if that thing retailed a worthwhile amount of its rotation after passing down a smoothbore barrel, I don't see why wad-induced rotation would die any sooner. I can see three possible snags, though. One is that the wad would surely be much lighter than the slug. So I think the tendency would be to spin the wad while the slug would remain almost stationary in the rotational sense. Another is that the process seems like it must come to a stop, when the wad hits the straight surfaces at the end to the inclined ones in the slug. I think it would spin the slug one way as it slides on those surfaces, and the opposite way when it hits.

    The third possible snag will probably be too complicated for you, if definitely being too complicated for me is any guide. The wad and slug will be locked immovably together for almost all of their path down the barrel. I think their rotational moment (mass times rotational velocity) would be the sum of their separate rotational moments, clockwise and anticlockwise, cancelling one another out.

    An entirely different possibility, however, would be a cartridge with a slow-twisted central rod attached to the inside of its head, engaging with an identically shaped hole in the slug. I think a square rod would be the best compromise between spinning the bullet and not being twisted in two or temporarily flexed straight. It would have to be bore length, so that you don't have an open hole in your slug until it is out in the open air. But archers carry a few things like that around willingly enough.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master bikerbeans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,299
    At the risk of being tarred and feather (i'm okay with the tar, not the feathers) how come we shotgunners persist in trying to shoot single projectiles from a smoothbore barrel? The rifle community immediately jumped on the rifled barrel bandwagon but a lot of us stIll persist in trying to accurately shoot an unstabilized projectile. I know many (myself included) have spent more money in molds and such than it would cost to buy a rifled slug barrel or maybe a complete rifled slug gun. I believe shooting slugs or RBs from a smoothbore shotgun is a form of mental disorder that has no cure.

    BB

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Indianapolis, indiana
    Posts
    1,135
    has anyone ever tried to rifle a smooth bore shotgun?

  9. #9
    If someone made a version of an over under with one barrel rifled that could be scoped, I cant say I would be looking into this at all. I like the thump of a slug...or else I would be getting a savage model 24 (or equivalent).

    Here's my gun of interest: https://www.charlesdaly.com/p.php?id=140

    For me, it boils down to wanting to have a scoped gun I can throw in a jeep or fourwheeler that can hit a coyote/pig at 100 yards, or a squirrel/rabbit/snake at closer distances (often moving targets). Kind of a do-all type gun. Setting a barrel up for each shot and slug, eliminating the need for two guns.

    A rifled choke would be attractive if they worked well.

    So, for me, its filling a niche solely because I don't know of another good option.

    That's my excuse and I am sticking to it

    ...and...for what its worth...there's just as many people trying to figure out how to shoot shot shells out of rifled barrels!

    I think this contributes to the attraction to guns like the Rossi Circuit Judge (which was poorly executed).

    Lastly, as long as a mouse trap exists, there will always be human nature to make a better one. I kind of glad that does happen, there's a lot of good (and I guess potentially bad too to be fair) that has came from that desire.


    Quote Originally Posted by bikerbeans View Post
    At the risk of being tarred and feather (i'm okay with the tar, not the feathers) how come we shotgunners persist in trying to shoot single projectiles from a smoothbore barrel? The rifle community immediately jumped on the rifled barrel bandwagon but a lot of us stIll persist in trying to accurately shoot an unstabilized projectile. I know many (myself included) have spent more money in molds and such than it would cost to buy a rifled slug barrel or maybe a complete rifled slug gun. I believe shooting slugs or RBs from a smoothbore shotgun is a form of mental disorder that has no cure.

    BB

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by mozeppa View Post
    has anyone ever tried to rifle a smooth bore shotgun?
    I would think you would have to add metal for the riflings to the barrel instead of cut metal away to ensure that the rifling engraved the bullet. Additive instead of subtractive manufacturing process.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    503
    Quote Originally Posted by bikerbeans View Post
    At the risk of being tarred and feather (i'm okay with the tar, not the feathers) how come we shotgunners persist in trying to shoot single projectiles from a smoothbore barrel? The rifle community immediately jumped on the rifled barrel bandwagon but a lot of us stIll persist in trying to accurately shoot an unstabilized projectile. I know many (myself included) have spent more money in molds and such than it would cost to buy a rifled slug barrel or maybe a complete rifled slug gun. I believe shooting slugs or RBs from a smoothbore shotgun is a form of mental disorder that has no cure.

    BB
    For me, it started as necessity. I could hunt the world with a shotgun, and I couldn't really with a handgun or rifle. Growing up, the southern half of Minnesota is a no-rifle area for regular firearms deer. Muzzle loaders, handguns, and slug guns are legal for deer. You can launch a 30/06 from a 14" barrel and a pistol grip if you want, but the same thing with a 16" barrel and a real stock makes you a poacher. It's never bothered me much, I never had a need for any more range. Eventually it just kind of became a thing, where I just kept trying to push the envelope. I got rifled slug guns, smooth bore slug guns, I tried all kinds of slugs, scopes, etc. If anything, I'm starting to peter out on slug guns. I just don't think there is anything more you can do, until you start modifying the guns themselves. They already sell them, they call it a rifle!

    The cure for Minnesota is for them to just give it up. Allow rifles everywhere in the state. I'd personally rather use buckshot. Inside of 40 yards, nothing will ever compare to buckshot.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Castlegar, B.C., Canada
    Posts
    5,673
    Quote Originally Posted by bikerbeans View Post
    At the risk of being tarred and feather (i'm okay with the tar, not the feathers) how come we shotgunners persist in trying to shoot single projectiles from a smoothbore barrel? The rifle community immediately jumped on the rifled barrel bandwagon but a lot of us stIll persist in trying to accurately shoot an unstabilized projectile. I know many (myself included) have spent more money in molds and such than it would cost to buy a rifled slug barrel or maybe a complete rifled slug gun. I believe shooting slugs or RBs from a smoothbore shotgun is a form of mental disorder that has no cure.

    BB
    What he said... except I'm not so big on either tar or feathers.

    And like Jeremy says, I like versatility. If I could afford one I would have a Paradox gun which was a "do it all" gun at least within 125 yards or so. As the old add said "Shoot doves in the morning and deer in the afternoon."

    https://www.classicshooting.com/blog...-a-paradox-gun

    Fosbery had it figured out and they are available again... for those with lots of money.

    This was my original goal and I fear mental disorder BB speaks of has me cornered at present!

    As for rifling smoothbores, I do not know but suspect that is why the English bore guns were much larger in groove diameter than shotguns. I may well be wrong there but it wouldn't surprise me to find they used the same drills and reamers to make the barrels then simply rifled them... possibly with thicker walls. Drills and reamers are expensive but lathe turning an O.D. doesn't cost any more or less for thicker or thinner barrel wall. However, a fully rifled gun is not as versatile as a smoothbore which was and is my goal (silly or not it makes me happy to try).

    Longbow

  13. #13
    Boolit Master bikerbeans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,299
    For me, Ohio DNR solved the multi-function issue of shot and slug from the same scattergun by closing the small game season during deer season.

    I like launching slugs from a smoothbore because it is a great challenge to try and make something work that refuses to cooperate. Even when you shoot a decent group you always wonder where the next slug will go.

    BB

  14. #14
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Castlegar, B.C., Canada
    Posts
    5,673
    And again... what BB said!

    So far round balls are the clear winner to 50 or maybe as far as 70 yards... discounting results from my last outing got which I'll take a lot of the blame being old, crotchety, unstable, out of practice and the sun was in my eyes! (Except it wasnt sunny).

    There is something about simple gettingvthe job done and living within those limits. It doesn't get much simpler than smoothbore... or more versatile.

    And then there's that mental disorder thing...

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy360 View Post
    I would think you would have to add metal for the riflings to the barrel instead of cut metal away to ensure that the rifling engraved the bullet. Additive instead of subtractive manufacturing process.
    That sounds like a good trick if you can do it, but I believe conventionally cut rifling would be perfectly satisfactory. Even paper cases were of enough internal diameter to allow for some compression of the wad in the bore, and plastic is thinner. The closer you enlarge the grooves to the diameter of the case and a slug which fits it closely, the better.

    It actually takes astonishingly little depth of rifling to spin a bullet. Metford managed it with half a thousandth in depth, or even the scratches left by coarse emery powder on a lead lap. The original Marlin MicroGroove rifling had a depth of only .0015in. deep, which they eventually had to increase in all except the .22 rimfire. They all worked well while they worked, a rapidly defunct .222 MicroGroove Marlin gaining a word varmint record before the complaints started rolling in. For they wear out too fast - in .222 more than the others, and in 12ga slug least.... er... I suppose...

    If I wanted to rifle a shotgun bore, I would look at round carbide lathe tool inserts, which you can see illustrated on eBay. Two or four grooves which were each an arc of a fairly large circle would surely also permit as good accuracy with shot as any rifled barrel can.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    As for rifling smoothbores, I do not know but suspect that is why the English bore guns were much larger in groove diameter than shotguns. I may well be wrong there but it wouldn't surprise me to find they used the same drills and reamers to make the barrels then simply rifled them... possibly with thicker walls. Drills and reamers are expensive but lathe turning an O.D. doesn't cost any more or less for thicker or thinner barrel wall.
    They varied a lot in weight, bore dimensions and loads, but I think the main reason was to come closer to fittig the cartridge case with a bullet of groove diameter. Any form of eccentricity or toppling in the throat is much more harmful with a rifle than a smoothbore.

    It would indeed be as cheap to lathe-turn a thin barrel's OD as a thick one's. Nowadays, with CNC machining, they probably are finished that way. But other than perhaps in the early stages, that wasn't how barrels in the great days of the hand-made shotgun were shaped. It was done by hand, holding two wooden plugs and letting the barrel spin against a large grindstone, which I believe would be under a water drip as it was in the cutlery trade.

    Even Conan the Barbarian had an aluminium sword for the action sequences, and he was a Republican. A straight tapered shotgun barrel would be impossibly heavy for bird-shooting, especially in a double, and it isn't the best distribution of metal to resist pressure either. The test of what we misleadingly call balance in a shotgun is to suspend it by its point of balance, pull one end up or down, and see how long it oscillates when released, before returning to the horizontal. Because of the recoil factor, there is no real advantage in lightening a 12ga much over a half-pound below average, but good barrel finishers were crucial in putting as much as possible of the weight close to the middle.

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    68
    The idea of imparting rotation to a slug is not a new idea, long before we had rifled barrels there were rifle muzzle extentions that could be threaded or silver soldered to the muzzle depending on muzzle dimensions. Some of them worked reasonably well- all of the types seemed to work better than the smooth bores of the period. They soldered type was so popular in the 60's that I can remember a shop that specialized in them- the shop still is in business but there likely isn't anyone still working there that did the work.

  18. #18
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    5
    Big round balls launched within a "tight to the bore" wad through a 30 or 32-inch barrel will work fine to 75-yards...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check