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Thread: Round ball in 20ga

  1. #101
    Boolit Master gpidaho's Avatar
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    It's a pretty easy trick to trim the old crimp off fired hulls with the BPI Trim Doctor II. I have new 3" hulls and did cut one down as a test but I don't want to waste the new 3"ers just to fit my load. I don't have any 20ga. 3" once fired on hand. Cutting 2 3/4" down to 2 1/2 or smaller is an option. Gp

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by toallmy View Post
    Can you trim your 3 in hulls to fit your 2 3/4 load you might have to condition the hull after trimming ? Just a thought .
    And an important thought. If nothing else some of my 3" are crimped right at 2 3/4.

    Hmmm wonder what tool I have that would allow me to thin that hull mouth material a bit without buying the tool. Would almost think I could wrap sandpaper over a dowel or finger. Seemed like it was just the top edge that was shaped / thinned.

    I do have some 2 3/4 hulls. Universal is one for sure, now that I think about it Federal is the other. Don't think either one has same base design as the Euro Fiocchi hulls, probably have to look that up. But 24.5 grains of Blue Dot is getting me up fairly far in the hull so it might not matter.
    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.

    Kind of hard to claim to love America while one is hating half the Americans that disagree with you. One nation indivisible requires work.

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  3. #103
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    Roger what you really need is a loader and follow the load exactly as stated and order a selection of nitro cards from Circle Fly, you get double the quantity from them.
    The Lee Load All does not have a crimp stop either. Any old Lyman easy loader or a Mec will get you going.
    Mec 600 current bid $35 https://www.ebay.com/itm/MEC-600-Jr-...4AAOSwuHJbEctI
    Try picking one up locally to avoid shipping ! !


    Versa-Mec-700-Shotshell-Reloader-20-Gauge-3-034-Used-w-Accessories-Shown
    Have one to sell? Sell now
    $100 See if you can offer $70 and get it. Versa Mec 700 Shotshell Reloader, 20 Gauge 3" Used w/Accessories Shown https://www.ebay.com/itm/Versa-Mec-7...wAAOSw3dtaz7Jb
    The prices are all going up through the roof.

    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots
    Last edited by SuperBlazingSabots; 06-04-2018 at 07:22 PM.

  4. #104
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    Ok I found out some things.

    Correct that the commander wad was over compressed. One change I made is less pressure (approx. 37 - 40 lbs.) I'm manually pressing down with a die sitting on an old bathroom scale so accuracy is not extreme. However a relative change is fairly consistent. Less pressure so the wad still had some give when it came time to crimp.

    Correct that the wad stack as provided in load data from Ajay was right height. It was used in several of the hulls but significant is it was used in almost all the better crimps. a couple had a overshot card under the commander wad in addition to .125 nitro card.

    Pushing the 6 point crimp cutter lower AND pushing much harder on the Lee Loader to get the hull further up into the crimp starting taper of the die helped get the crimp started further down the hull, this seemed to help with providing enough material to meet in the center of the crimp. At least some of the time. I did the pressing with a wood block to protect hand and on a modified stool so I could put some weight into getting that hull up into the tapered part of the die.

    The stack suggested for a 2 3/4 shell by gpidaho was spot on. Loaded a 1x fired Federal hull just for look-see and with out a doubt the pre-creased hull was easier and crimp was pretty much spot on.

    What to do with the rejects? And which ones have to be rejected totally, or are any less than righteous crimps still safe for milk bottle of water blasting?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.

    Kind of hard to claim to love America while one is hating half the Americans that disagree with you. One nation indivisible requires work.

    Feedback page http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...light=RogerDat

  5. #105
    Boolit Master gpidaho's Avatar
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    Roger: Federal hulls are straight-walled hulls and should be about as good as hulls get for loading slugs and round ball. At least that's what I read in the "Papers" Gp

  6. #106
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    Shotgun loading is a finicky thing pressure wise what ever you do be safe .

  7. #107
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    Good Morning Roger, you are getting there and need to keep notes as to how you loaded it.

    Roger as a friend, never deviate from the load and no matter how much you trust a friend always drop the charge by 2 to three grains then load one shell at 32, 32.5, 33, 33.5, 34 and finally 34.5 gr and shoot them one at a time and carefully watch for pressure or extraction signs before you proceed to the next shell higher up.
    This you do for your own safety and because you love your family ! !
    Learn to read pressure signs:




    When developing newer loads always use newer Fiocchi hull as they tend to show pressure signs early on and once your load is developed switch over to newer Federal hull for hunting for a smoother action when the golden moment comes for that trophy ! !

    **--** The ones with a deep roll crimp fire them in a H & R Ultra slug hunter as the pressure could go high in a regular gun due to deep roll crimp that the RB has to ride over or just put them aside for now ! !

    Best of luck and enjoy while you are at it.
    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots
    Last edited by SuperBlazingSabots; 06-05-2018 at 02:21 PM.

  8. #108
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    I'm slowly zeroing in on a more consistent crimp. The ratio of failed to success is improving. Only screwed up 3 out of 10 last night and 2 of those were trying different things, only one was pushing through the crimp.

    Less pressure on packing wad. Forcing the crimp fold as far down as possible. Using C press like an arbor press to push in the crimp center, then finishing it in the Lee Loader die which controls the outside diameter. All seem to be slowly coming together to yield the crimps on the left side of front row.

    I'm a whole lot more likely to spend $100 on a press than I am $500 on a slug gun I do know someone with a 20 gauge slugger barrel for the Mossberg 500 would that be a decent alternative?

    In looking at presses saw the picture of how the Mec slugger folds over a crimp and it looks an awful lot like my push through. The ones in the middle row with the RB sitting fairly high look much like this example from the slugger. https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Images/sluggerT.jpg

    https://www.ballisticproducts.com/ME...tinfo/1309213/ Then click on the hull image under the press so it comes up in viewer, it is folded in steps to a folded in crimp, not a roll crimp, not a normal flat fold crimp.

    Appreciate the heads up that the Lee Load-All doesn't have a crimp depth adjustment. For the amount I use a shotgun (not a competitive shooter or anything) I would have thought the Lee would be perfect for my limited demands and affordable. I will certainly be checking around for a Mec 600 but will have to do some research to find out more about what to look for or look out for in a used one.

    Sounds like it is time I do some testing to look for pressure signs in the better fold crimp shells. I saw a recipe for 36.5 and one for 34.5 so I went with the lower one to start figuring that was at least 2 grains under max. But depending on what the first one or two do I may be backing that down to 32.5 and working up.
    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.

    Kind of hard to claim to love America while one is hating half the Americans that disagree with you. One nation indivisible requires work.

    Feedback page http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...light=RogerDat

  9. #109
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    Lee loader doesn't have a stop, Lee Load-All as Ajay pointed out has no stop BUT my drill press has a stop.

    I mentioned I might try the C press or the drill press to gain control of the crimp in a prior post. Tried the C press and it did allow me to see and control the crimp but My sizing die plug base to push against was a little small and the crimp was being done outside the Lee Loader die so the crimp tended to flare out. Sliding it back into the Lee die got rid of the flare but tended to push the crimp up.

    Tried the drill press with a piece of dowel the same size as Lee Loader plunger. Viola (or at least a little viola) Tried it out on a few already crimped cases in order to adjust the stop and tighten the existing crimp and it worked. Went to the bench and loaded 3 hulls which I did the final crimp on the drill press and they all came out the same, are not popping back up either.

    Not perfect but crimp is over ball and all three crimps looked the same and more importantly had the ball at the same height in the hull when done. They should be consistent. Will have to wait to see if they are consistently accurate or consistently inaccurate.

    Final wad stack was:
    Red OP gas seal | .125 nitro in base of Commander wad | 3 nitro @ .125 in shot cup firmly seated with a .562 ball at 266 grains. All on top of 34.5 grains of Blue Dot The load was for a heavier 575 ball at 285 grains. Essentially one of the loads Ajay provided. I am going to look into a what I think will be a milder load using Unique or Green Dot depending on how this one performs.

    Where loading process still falls short is the crimp folds over a bit high so instead of the crimp being inset just a touch and straight across the crimp dips in the middle a bit. Pleats don't quite meet in the middle, so a small spot of ball shows. I can't get the shoulder of the crimp to happen down closer to the height of the ball. Assuming this load is accurate, or accurate enough to tweak I could see a small drop of hot melt glue sealing those crimps. Also any difference in the stack height or compression makes the crimp vary so I have to sort of sneak up on it by starting too shallow and then looking at the shell to determine how much more to move the drill press stop. Seems like have to crimp at least twice or more to get the crimp as good as it's going to get.

    I will post pictures but not tonight.
    Last edited by RogerDat; 06-06-2018 at 08:56 AM.
    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.

    Kind of hard to claim to love America while one is hating half the Americans that disagree with you. One nation indivisible requires work.

    Feedback page http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...light=RogerDat

  10. #110
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    Picture worth and all that. As I said, at least consistent if not perfect.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I will be asking around at a gun show later this month to see what I can find for a Mec 600 or 600 jr press. I saw a good deal on a nice 12 gauge one awhile back but I was there for some other stuff so I passed. Many on tables seem to be estate sale rejects but I know some vendors who might have one or be able to locate a decent press. Will keep an eye on eBay too but sheesh shipping is rough.
    Last edited by RogerDat; 06-06-2018 at 01:02 PM.
    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.

    Kind of hard to claim to love America while one is hating half the Americans that disagree with you. One nation indivisible requires work.

    Feedback page http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...light=RogerDat

  11. #111
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    Great and as we go we can keep improving, right now all you need is a thin overshot card on top of the RB before crimping, that's it ! !
    You can start having fun and do range tests for accuracy, now thats your own cooking make notes and repeat the loading process.

    I'm happy for you and wish you the very best ! !

    Best of luck and enjoy while you are at it.
    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots

    PS: On the look out for a used Mec loader in 20 ga, not so pricey, tho ! !
    Please help if you have one spare one.
    Last edited by SuperBlazingSabots; 06-06-2018 at 02:45 PM.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperBlazingSabots View Post
    Great and as we go we can keep improving, right now all you need is a thin overshot card on top of the RB before crimping, that's it ! !
    You can start having fun and do range tests for accuracy, now thats your own cooking make notes and repeat the loading process.

    I'm happy for you and wish you the very best ! !

    Best of luck and enjoy while you are at it.
    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots

    PS: On the look out for a used Mec loader in 20 ga, not so pricey, tho ! !
    Please help if you have one spare one.
    So add a 20 gauge overshot card on top of the round ball to support the crimp?
    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.

    Kind of hard to claim to love America while one is hating half the Americans that disagree with you. One nation indivisible requires work.

    Feedback page http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...light=RogerDat

  13. #113
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    Good morning Roger, better yet you can even cut out a round disk from Egg carton of .600 and place it over the RB just for the crimp to get a platform to rest on.
    Ajay

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperBlazingSabots View Post
    Good morning Roger, better yet you can even cut out a round disk from Egg carton of .600 and place it over the RB just for the crimp to get a platform to rest on.
    Ajay
    Sort of on my to-do list to look for some punches. Gasket or from Hobby Lobby. Do you mean the foam egg cartons or the cardboard fiber ones?

    One thing I discovered last night. If I start the crimp fold then open the crimp up enough to slip the over card in I get a flatter crimp. The Lee Loader die when pushed down to start the crimp folding in seems to always fold a bit above the stack. Adding the over card after getting that fold made makes the stack come up to the fold more, at least in the one I tried. Repeat testing will be required to confirm. Did 3 hulls, one that way and two adding the card before starting fold. Adding card after made for a flatter crimp. All three seem usable and are getting more consistent with practice.

    Going to slow down on this project until I can get some test time at a range. Might explore some 2 3/4 load data for milder loads. And putting together a potential shopping list for components. Going to watch Ballistic Products for sales. Notice Federal field load 1x fired and some other nice 1x fired options are often sold out.

    Have started putting feelers out to locate an actual shotgun press. Used at a good price. I really do like the idea of using a small Lee Loader for making a few shells. But I also like the idea of making better ammo faster.

    Still have a wasp waist Lyman 12 gauge mold to try out, and a 6 cavity .31 round ball for a #1 buck load in both 12 and 20 gauge I want to try when I get the chance.

    Did hear a suggestion to use a soft wad. Which sounds like your egg carton wad. Allowing the stack to sort of self adjust to the crimp.
    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.

    Kind of hard to claim to love America while one is hating half the Americans that disagree with you. One nation indivisible requires work.

    Feedback page http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...light=RogerDat

  15. #115
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    Considering this image is what the MEC slugger press does for a crimp I am going to locate a heavier barrel 20 gauge and try my pushed through loads. It is essentially a folded over version of a roll crimp which if you look at my early attempts that is what I had.

    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.

    Kind of hard to claim to love America while one is hating half the Americans that disagree with you. One nation indivisible requires work.

    Feedback page http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...light=RogerDat

  16. #116
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    Foam egg cartons, will support the crimp to rest on and not cave-in.
    Roger I too love a good hard boiled egg salad, you enjoy yours !
    At EBay starting .99 cents https://www.ebay.com/i/153017215203?...r=452827346494
    Want to pay more than: https://www.ebay.com/i/153017215203?...r=452827346494
    Here is one for $15 and cuts upto 3/4 inch https://www.ebay.com/itm/12pc-Hollow...pe!19904!US!-1
    Sorry about opening a can of worms ! !

    Ajay Madan
    Super Blazing Sabots
    Last edited by SuperBlazingSabots; 06-07-2018 at 02:41 PM.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperBlazingSabots View Post
    Foam egg cartons, will support the crimp to rest on and not cave-in.
    Ajay
    Thanks. I see some hard boiled egg salad in my future
    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.

    Kind of hard to claim to love America while one is hating half the Americans that disagree with you. One nation indivisible requires work.

    Feedback page http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...light=RogerDat

  18. #118
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    Little bit of an update.
    I took these to a members backyard range along with a 20 gauge MEC 650 that he help me adjust.

    I can say with certainty all of those 20 gauge crimps fired and really no noticeable difference in pressure signs or recoil. I was shooting at fairly short range but all seemed equally accurate. Devastating on reject yellow squash from the garden. You could say they were pre-composted by the time the little pieces came to rest on the berm.

    No crono so can't say what velocity the different crimps yielded. I hope to use the 650 to crimp further reloads. But did get the loan of a Versa Mec with base sizer so I could size my used hulls and more easily hand load the round ball and larger shot that tends to get caught in the tube or be too hard to cut if it gets caught in the shot bar.

    Next time I will be going for accuracy against a target, and increase the range, as well as try out a rifled choke but after working on getting the progressive press set up it was getting late so I just put cylinder bore choke in and banged through 20 shots putting fear into vegetables and some propped up clay pigeons.

    While the shotgun in question can handle 3" magnum shells it was difficult to feed a second one into the magazine. Will need to look into that more. Might have been the sort of raggedy crimp catching as I tried to feed the second shell in.
    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.

    Kind of hard to claim to love America while one is hating half the Americans that disagree with you. One nation indivisible requires work.

    Feedback page http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...light=RogerDat

  19. #119
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    Also found out that the second hole for the center support of a MEC 650 is to move the tools up for 3" hulls so looking forward to that being an option.
    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.

    Kind of hard to claim to love America while one is hating half the Americans that disagree with you. One nation indivisible requires work.

    Feedback page http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...light=RogerDat

  20. #120
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    Any updates on your pumpkin ball load , accuracy ? I'm asking because it seems the group buy on a 20 gage slug mold is going to take a while - so I could play with some baby canon balls out of my 20 pump gun .

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check