Round ball in 20ga

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Roger if you use the hand press then mark the plunger with marker or scotch tape and start crimping a new load and little by little keep marking till you get the desired crimp depth.
" Once upon a time " I too had that hand loader.

Ajay Madan
Super Blazing Sabots

[RogerDat]

Roger if you use the hand press then mark the plunger with marker or scotch tape and start crimping a new load and little by little keep marking till you get the desired crimp depth.
" Once upon a time " I too had that hand loader.

Ajay Madan
Super Blazing Sabots

I was giving some thought to putting a dowel in the drill press and setting a stop or..... getting really out there... use a C press and a Lee Sizing die. Put a sizing push rod into a larger sizing die flat base down. Then bring the ram up to finish the crimp after getting it most of the way crimped in the Lee tool by hand. Have used that sizer die pin as anvil in top sizing die a couple of times for seating gas checks on RFN bullets.

I'm thinking the drill press with a stop holds the most promise. Pressing with Lee tool on a bathroom scale to avoid pushing hard enough to collapse the crimp I can get the crimp close but still a bit of a teepee in the center and it wants to open back up. Hard to control pressure well enough to "break the edge" so the crimp locks down without suddenly pushing through. To get the one shell with crimp over ball shown in next post I had two that I pushed through and folded over.

[RogerDat]

Wonder if the yellow 20 on the front left is "there" or not as far as crimp goes. Not great crimp but it has held in place for a few hours and is over the ball.

Also was wondering if these rolled over crimps are usable? Mostly from a safety standpoint. But also from the standpoint of accuracy. Same components, loaded the same, with same crimp does that equal same accuracy? Assuming they are safe to shoot.

From the stand point of pressure or ballistics how different is a folded over crimp from pushing through from a rolled crimp? Doesn't look a whole lot different than the red 12 gauge slug roll crimp on the front right.

My mistakes are getting to be a nice little pile, if I can at least salvage a few of them to blast dirt and make noise that would be something. The ones that are real deep or have overshot cards I'm going to have to cut open to salvage anything.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Roger your last picture shows
A. The crimp needs a bit more material to fully close.
B. the RB needs yet another .125 nitro card below it or in the base cavity to bring it up to help support the crimp.
You are almost there, now.
Ajay Madan
Super Blazing Sabots

[RogerDat]

Hello Roger your last picture shows
A. The crimp needs a bit more material to fully close.
B. the RB needs yet another .125 nitro card below it or in the base cavity to bring it up to help support the crimp.
You are almost there, now.
Ajay Madan
Super Blazing Sabots

So I need to move the wad lower but the ball higher? The wad lower to get more material, the ball higher to support the crimp?
I am NOT compulsive but I keep going to the bench and thinking Hmmm maybe if I.... then I make another scrap shell. <sigh>

Really appreciate all your help Ajay. And especially appreciate not laughing at my Lee Loader

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Roger, The RB needs to come up for the crimp to rest on it.
If you just add another .125-20 ga nitro card after the Red OP wad would bring the whole wad column up, that simple.
I myself had bought the hand loader in 1970 and even used it till I got to other loaders.

Keep it up and just load one more and put the pictures up.
I wish you the very best, we are in it to win it ! !

Ajay Madan
Super Blazing Sabots

[gpidaho]

Roger: LOL, I'm getting a small pile of crumpled cases my self. If the case gets too short you can trim them back to the base and fire them in a break barrel single shot like this. Insert brass head with primer and close the action. Load a charge of black powder like a muzzle loader. Insert stuffable wad (I use sheep's wool) Tamp down and add shot. Wad on top( wool, paper whatever) Let her rip. You've got a BP shotgun! Have fun and good luck with all this. Gp

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Good Morning Roger, please don't start dismantling the loaded hull, keep them aside for now.
Ajay Madan

[RogerDat]

Will do. Had a grandson graduation today so giving the RB loading a rest. Part of the problem is there is a lot of spring back from the wad/stack. Even when it seems the crimp is pretty good it will slowly get pushed open. It almost seems as though the stack pushes down easily but bounces back. Have 5 sort of good ones but the crimp on all is dished in a bit. Crimp coming down to ball rather than flat across. Not even sure they are still down.

[Hogtamer]

Don't quite understand the roll crimp on something that has no shoulder to support it, seems doomed to fail. Get the right height wad or shotcup/hard stack and fold crimp.

[toallmy]

I have been watching this thread with interest also , I'm not shore but I think you may be crushing the wad when crimping .

[RogerDat]

Don't quite understand the roll crimp on something that has no shoulder to support it, seems doomed to fail. Get the right height wad or shotcup/hard stack and fold crimp.

The roll crimp is accidental, and not desired. Crimp is going through and folding the 6 point crimp intended into a sort of a roll crimp. Although most of the store bought foster type slugs I have are roll crimped not fold crimped. It also due to the "points" seems to catch and hold the wad down and the ball in place. I would bet pressure would not be as desired even if they did work.

Since they deviated from what was intended for this load was why in earlier post I asked if they could safely be used for shooting dirt berm and making noise

I have been watching this thread with interest also , I'm not shore but I think you may be crushing the wad when crimping .

I think you might be right. As Ajay described I need more material for the fold so it meets in the center BUT I also need the ball to sit higher so it supports that fold crimp. Using my current nitro cards I can't quite get the wad low enough (7/16 below hull mouth for crimp) and the ball high enough to support the crimp. So..... I have a theory.

When the ball is high enough to support crimp the wad gets pushed down to fold in a 6 point crimp. Wad under pressure pushes crimp back up. This sounds like what you are describing. I am going to start splitting the nitro cards so I can add a partial thickness in the wad cup so I can raise the ball in a tiny increment. Without raising the TC wad.

I tried slipping a different number of thin 20 gauge overshot cards between OP wad and TC wad to raise it by small amounts with only limited success. Not for use really just to determine what height I needed to make things work. I don't have any 28 gauge overshot cards to use the same way inside the wad cup. So splitting nitro card seems the best I to test with for now.

It seems almost silly when I write it out but could this be due to this load stack being typically used with a .575 ball and my bore only accepting a .562 ball so my ball height is just a smidge lower. A wad stack that is a proven good load for RB in this hull so it is either my technique (highly possible to the point of probable) or maybe that .013 difference in height of the ball matters when crimping. Hence my thought to split some nitro cards with a razor and see if I can get that ball up a tiny amount while leaving the TC wad sitting on OP gas seal and nitro card. I see Ballistic products makes a .070 mini nitro card so I'm going to try and approximate that thickness inside the cup as my next attempt.

[Hogtamer]

Easy in a 12 ga as there is a frangible plastic overshot card made that allows a flat surface for crimp, rolled or folded. No such animal for 20, must be a solid like cardboard....or, as some have done, punch out thin plastic ones from egg cartons, milk jugs and the like. They do require a certain stiffness to suport the crimp. Could split a 1/8" hard card.

[RogerDat]

I have also considered that when crimp gets folded the fold is being started too high. All my reloading of shotgun has involved reloading prev. fired hulls, those already have the crease around the mouth to determine where the crimp fold starts at.

So for my next attempt it will be split nitro card and work at getting the crimp fold started a little bit lower on the hull.

[toallmy]

I am not sure what is going on inside of your lee loader - but it seems your getting a good crimp start but on the finish your getting a bit to much push through on the final crimp smashing the wad legs compressing your stack height . Does that make sense ?

[Hogtamer]

Retrieved some .570 ball loads several years ago and here's pic of perfect crimp in previously fired AA HS hull 2 3/4"

Next is pic of slit hull. Forget about the wad, it's an old obsolete (sadly) Lage Uniwad, but notice a hard card O.P. wad then the wad itself. If I were loading this now I would use xxx powder charge, then a gas seal. A couple of hard cards (i happen to have some 3/8") whatver you have. This would be a dummy load with no live primer but use the powder charge you intend to use. Then perhaps a felt wad for a little cushion, then the shot cup only of the wadcup I intend to use. Note: a 28 ga card is generally too big to fit in the bottom of a 20 ga shotcup without bulging, I have 32 ga, then a 28 ga if needed to fit wad taper, with a little buffer over the card to settle the ball. Lots of steps I know and this may not all fit to perfect height. If too tall remove a card above the gas seal and try again. Remember height is everything so all this fitting can be tedious, but all you've lost are a few hulls till you get it just right, THEN you can load a hundred and not worry about the finished shell. Of course just load five that look and fit perfectly then shoot them. After all, looks don't make good accuracy. A different powder load or wad may make all the difference in that regard. FWIW in these types of loads with no crush section I use equivalent weight steel shot recipes minus 10% as those wads don't have crush sections anyway. That means relatively slow powders like steel or li'l gun for max velocity and lower pressures.

[gpidaho]

Roger: Like you I was having a little trouble zeroing in on a good wad stack. I purchased three five packs of commercial Foster style rifled slug loads, One Winchester and two Federal with the idea of looking inside and seeing how they were loaded. I've only opened one of the Winchester loads so far but here's what I found. 22gr. flake powder, .235 Gas seal, two .300 fiber wads, a .130 hard card and a rifled slug that measured .680 in height. All added up the stack plus slug was 1.645. Over my powder charge I used a BPI 20ga Commander wad with a 28ga. 1/8 hard card in the base of the wad and two in the wad under a .562 RB this height was within a few thousandths of the height of the factory round and the only problem with the crimp was that it had that swirl to it. So I'll send a couple downrange and try an adjustment on the next ones. At least I'm zeroing in on a wad stack height. Gp

[RogerDat]

gpidaho: Sounds like you were using 2 3/4 inch hulls, is that correct? Mine was much the same stack except for an additional OP gas seal of approximately .235 under the commander wad in addition to the hard card in the base. I have tried two and 3 of the .125 nitro cards in the wad cup. I'm loading 3 inch hulls.

I do have some Remington and Universal 20 gauge 2 3/4 hulls that might work with the stack you outlined. I may give them a look.

HogTamer: Really like the idea of a slit view hull to examine the stack and see how it fits, and check if the commander wad is getting crushed legs. The idea is brilliant, and it just so happens I have a few damaged hulls sitting around that I could slit and stack the load in.

There is a step with the Lee Loader where you press down on the sizing die over the hull to "start" the crimp folding in. Essentially a taper inside the die starts folding the pleats of the crimp into a point. Which is then pushed down with a rammer. I'm wondering if maybe I need to push that die down further so the "base" of the pleats starting fold is lower on the hull. It is almost like the crimp is folding just a touch too high. Leading to pleats not meeting in the middle and locking when level across the mouth. Not meeting and locking makes it way too easy to push through the crimp.

After all 45# of pressure will compress the wad allowing the whole crimp to fold inward. For all the frustration I can't wait to get back and look into this some more. If it was easy what fun would that be? Ok plenty of fun with less hassle but still knowing the challenge can be solved gives it a sirens call.

[gpidaho]

Roger: That's correct. I've been using some once fired 2 3/4" Rio hulls and using a Mec 600 Jr. press Like was posted above, this pretty much sets the crimp spot. I've ordered 200 new primed cases from BPI in the hope that this might help improve the looks of the crimp. I too wish BPI would make the clear plastic owershot cards in 20ga. I'd like to use a roll crimp. In my 12ga. attempts the clear overshot card worked great for RB loads. Gp

[toallmy]

Can you trim your 3 in hulls to fit your 2 3/4 load you might have to condition the hull after trimming ? Just a thought .