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Thread: Sleeves to Reduce Large to Small Primer Pocket Brass Cases

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Sleeves to Reduce Large to Small Primer Pocket Brass Cases

    Is there source that makes sleeves to put in a large primer pockets to reduce it from a large primer pocket to a small primer pocket ... LP to SP - LR to SR?
    Thanks for Looking
    Regards
    John

  2. #2
    Boolit Master pertnear's Avatar
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    Interesting question, never heard/thought about that before. Just curious, why would someone want to do that?
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  3. #3
    Boolit Master




    bruce drake's Avatar
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    Multiple reasons to do this and it has been done in the past. Dick Casull did it when he was working up loads for his 454 Casull cartridge.
    1) To extend the life of obscure brass. If the primer pockets are starting to work loose on that expensive Norma 8mm Lebel, sleeving the primer pockets would extend the life of the cartridge.
    2) converting berdan-primed cases over to re-loadable brass (I'd actually prefer to modify Berdan cartridges to use shotgun primers myself and restrict the cases to cast-bullet loads only) Its a sticky on our Forum also (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ckets-to-Boxer)
    3) If you want to consolidate your primer purchases into one size to ease up on the types being stocked or the time expended swapping primer arms out on the single-stage or progressive press.
    4) To totally irritate folks who hate the idea of having small-primered 45 ACP brass....If I wanted to be a meany, I'd sleeve a couple of hundred Winchester 45ACP cases and leave them out for brass vultures to pick them up at the range and then let them mess up their reloading press...
    5) Benchrest shooters have been doing this or decades on some of their cartridges to help lower SD values in their larger cartridges.

    Now where they can be found, I have no idea.

    Bruce
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  4. #4
    Boolit Master DonMountain's Avatar
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    Since large rifle/pistol primers are not the same depth as small rifle/pistol primers, a simple ring of metal inserted in the large primer hole would set the small primer too deep. If you inserted a cup like affair into the large primer hole my guess would be that the base of the cup would cause the cup to blow out of the primer hole. It may work for a few experimental trials. But would be expensive to produce with minimal use before failure. So there just probably isn't a market for such an affair. It would be more practical to have one of the custom case manufacturers to produce the odd cases the correct way with the primer holes that you would want.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    For LBRP to SRP 22lrreloader.com.
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  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    Small pistol and small rifle primers are the same height. Large pistol primers are .008" shorter than large rifle primers...
    My Anchor is holding fast!

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    During WWII some reloaders removed the anvils from fired LR primers, flattened out the firing pin indention, and inserted a SP primer into the old LR cup. When seated they were above the face of the cartridge, but if it chambered you were good to go. Hopefully they only tried this trick with some mild cast loads. I read about this in an old Rifleman magazine,during the wartime shortages they had to make do, or not shoot.

  8. #8
    A piece of 1/4 inch copper tubing 0.60 long sized on an rcbs swager will convert the larger 7.62 x 54r steel brass case primer pockets to regular large primer pockets...........

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    I think Starline would make small primer pockets in 45-70 if you had a large enough order. I know that at one time Buffalo Arms had 38-55 brass in small primer and those went away.
    For pistol primers I use .008 thick art paper below the primer.

  10. #10
    This was the subject of an altercation between Marlin and Winchester. Marlin were first to make a lever-action, the 1881, which could handle the .45-70 Government load, with the round-nosed bullet which was an asset for the ranges. To do this without magazine explosions, which they did have in early army trials, the used a small primer in the large case, and Winchester followed suit. Then Winchester brought in the 1886, which didn't need this. I'm guessing, but I think the difference may have been made by Mason's cartridge hook, which required a less forceful magazine spring. They reverted to the large primer for all the ammunition they sold.

    So relative safety in a tube magazine might be a factor, if you like "relative". Whatever the reason, the best way might be to force a small-primer diameter mandrel into a short piece of tubing, leaving the OD over the large primer diameter. Then use the mandrel to hold it in the lathe and furn its outer diameter, possibly using a pointed tool and the slowest feed of your lathe, to make the outside of the sleeve very finely grooved for a better grip on the brass.

    I don't think the depth of the pocket, adequate or greater, is much of a consideration. After all, all that contacts the bottom of the pocket is the anvil, and we don't force that into the composition until its tip meets metal. I think friction would make the short primer resist the firing-pin enough for ignition.

    If you needed to do this for a lot of cases, it would be worth consulting a repetition machining firm, used to making screws etc, in bulk. They had automatically fed machines even before CNC maching, and I am sure they have got better since. They could make you a lot of steel primer pockets, about the size of a shotgun primer with outer cup, to screw and Loctite into a drilled case-head. A point to watch, though, is that you would lose one of the signs of excessive pressure, namely enlargement of the primer pocket to make the new ones an easier fit or even the old ones drop out.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master dbosman's Avatar
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    Freedom Arms used to sell bushing kits for people making .454 Casull brass.
    George Nonte described primer pocket sleeves or bushings in one of his conversion books.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    J
    ust curious, why would someone want to do that?
    Pertnear - the purpose is this, to decrease the brisance the explosion of smokeless powder and the deflaguration of black powder reloads. Plus as was posted by bruce:
    5) Benchrest shooters have been doing this or decades on some of their cartridges to help lower SD values in their larger cartridges.
    for both smokeless and BP reloads
    Pre 1900's before semi smokeless powders and then the advent of smokeless powders, manufacturers made black powder primers to increase the deflaguration of BP and control the brisance on ignition. Then smokeless powders were it and those shooting smokeless complained the BP primers were not exploding the new powders with BP primers. Ergo, the hotter smokeless primers were on sold
    Gunpowder is classified as a low explosive because of its relatively slow decomposition rate and consequently low brisance. Low explosives (Black Powder) deflagrate (i.e., burn) at subsonic speeds, whereas high explosives (smokeless) detonate, producing a supersonic wave. A supersonic explosion wave (smokeless) has a negative irregular brisance ignition on black powder


    In today's BPCR shooting community, many use LP primers to reduce brisance as the only alternative to obtain a better deflaguration of the powder colum
    Regards
    John

  13. #13
    Boolit Master




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    BiS,

    I think that keeping bushed primer pocket brass to cast load pressures would definitely be a safer option than jacketed loads.
    I Cast my Boolits, Therefore I am Happy.
    Bona Fide member of the Jeff Brown Hunt Club

  14. #14
    Boolit Master

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    I sleeved 243 win to small pockets in my NRA match / Long range rifle. A pre 64 model 70 with hart 1-7 otc contour. Chamber is a .267 neck. Extreme spreads and Standard deviations went down some. Accuracy from 600 to a 1000 very slightly improved. On some 22-250s it was a little better even. The 308s stayed about the same on numbers and accuracy.
    I made simple steel sleeves .001-.002 small on dia and .0005-,001 press in the pockets with a light v cut near the base at the needed length. I put these in with a bench mounted primer seater and red Loctite and then swaged the sleeve to size. ( this pressed the sleeve even tighter into the primer pocked as it expanded some being swaged. (I never had one come out with a primer)
    While there was a slight improvement on the bench it didn't really show when shooting from position ( prone with a cuff) I decided the extra work in prep wasn't worth it. What might have been as effective would have been plugging flash holes and drilling at .055 for a centered consistant flash hole in every case. But Lapua cases were very close on this already.
    The sleeves can be easily made in a lathe and then pressed in place and reamed or swaged to size but From the gains I saw its a lot of work. I had a lathe with dro and aloris tooling so I cut run the zeros on the set up. The big issue was these little sleeves were a pain find if they got to the chip pan. I started with .250 10l leaded steel stock and it was center drill drill ( I used a center drill with a short point to a depth that left a small chamfer when drilled). one turn pass with a 60* threading tool, this left a slightly rough finish that gripped and held Loctite well. Then a light vee cut just below center maybe .010 deep. This ring was to also hold Loctite and grab the case when swaged) change tools to a .030 parting blade and cut off to length.
    Instalation was done with a bench mounted singe feed priming tool. Lightly coat pocket with red locktite. press sleeve in and straight to swager before Loctite cured. The pain was sorting the sleeve to chamfered end out and the mess the locktite made in the priming punch and sleeve. When doing this I had the rcbs priming tool ad Dillon swager set up side bt side on the same board. SO as to be as ergonomic as possible. possibly better way might be a lee ram prime in a press beside the swager. Its a lot of work for what is gained in most cases.
    As to fixing worn primer pockets ther used to be a ring crimp type tool that mounted in a press and you could press the head around the pocket slightly smaller and then swage the pocket back to size. Again a lot of work

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    I also thought about doing something like this.
    Wanted to use berdan primed cases with boxer primers.
    Never got around to doing it.
    Seems like it would work for cast boolets, but I don't know if it would stay in with a regular load.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master

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    Where can it go? when the round is chambered and action locked up it supported and held in place by the bolt face. When inserted with adequate press and the lock tite then swaged out tighter its way more press and grip than the original primers had in the primer pockets. For even more grip the sleeves could be frozen in dry ice for a few hours before inserting them to shrink them slightly, but then they would need to be handled with tweezers also.

    With berdan primers using sleeves to convert you would need to remove the anvil with a uniform tool then re drill the flash hole to center but should be doable. Ideally drilling the new flashole from the inside out to avoid burrs in the case.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master



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    I've kept this concept in my Hip Pocket for several years, just in case the cost of 50BMG Primers get too expensive; or I have trouble getting them. Plan is to sleeve the pocket on 50BMG Brass to use Magnum Large Rifle primers. Have not done it yet because I have a good stock of 50BMG Primers on hand and pick up a 100 or so every time I run across them.
    Mustang

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  18. #18
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by MUSTANG View Post
    I've kept this concept in my Hip Pocket for several years, just in case the cost of 50BMG Primers get too expensive; or I have trouble getting them. Plan is to sleeve the pocket on 50BMG Brass to use Magnum Large Rifle primers. Have not done it yet because I have a good stock of 50BMG Primers on hand and pick up a 100 or so every time I run across them.
    Been more years than I want to remember. I recall reading something in a gun rag. I could have the facts wrong so take it with a grain of salt. The 50 BMG pocket was threaded with supplied tap, a sleeve with grooves for a blade screwdriver was screwed into primer pocket with cement likely was Lock-Tite or something similar included in the kit. If my 67 year old brain is functioning, best I recall I read it in the early to mid 70's. I think it was in a Soldier of Fortune magazine. If I'm not mistaken back then 50 BMG primers were a near impossible item to find.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master




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    http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=186338
    This fellow converted 50BMG cases to use either shotgun 209 primers or Large Rifle Primers but he was taking the neck out of the cases and basically making a very long tapered case like an oversized old school 50-140 Sharps cartridge.
    I Cast my Boolits, Therefore I am Happy.
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  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy
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    There was an article in Handloader back in the 80's where someone was manufacturing these for sale. IIRC and, as already stated, there were some accuracy gains depending on load density, case length etc. but not enough to be worth the effort. The name "Tooly" comes to mind but then a lot of "stuff" runs through my mind that has questionable value. I believe this driven by Remington coming out with the .308BR Basic cases that had the long shoulder anneal area and small rifle primer pocket for the bench rest shooters to experiment with. Hence the .30BR, 7BR, 6.5BR.....I have an XP-100 in 7BR and its pretty accurate.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check