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Thread: .40 S&W as jackets

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    .40 S&W as jackets

    What needs to be done to .40 S&W brass before using same for a .45 jacket?

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    What weight boolit are you intending on making?
    a 230gn hollowpoint needs to be trimmed a bit, but a 300gn does not.
    Other than that, the brass needs to be annealed dead soft, 750* for 20-30 minutes. (And it does not matter if the brass is air cooled or quenched, brass does not harden by quenching from a hot state.)

    I cook mine in a SS wire basket in the kiln and then quench in a citric acid solution to knock some of the scale off.

  3. #3
    Boolit Buddy
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    Post 40-caliber cases to 45-acp 230-grain bullets

    Started making these and other calibers about a year ago. Using the smaller Dave Corbin H-Dies in an automated hydraulic press.
    First step, as stated fully anneal cases. Invested in an Induction annealer I automated, minimum 300/cases an hour rate,
    all cases are annealed at 750/deg. all uniform. Expensive to initially setup but will do the full length for pistol calibers and rifle necks only if needed. It's only a hobby.
    Second step, swage cores to achieve a finished 230/grain bullet. Already have die for making 44/cal bullets. Saved some money here. Only needed a two die set to complete a finished bullet. Use the same die for 44/cal, 45/cal, 50/AE & 500/S&W cores.
    Third step, flare case mouths to same size as core seating die diameter. Required so not to crush case when seating core.
    Fourth step, press cycle start on press and watch core being seated.
    Fifth step, finish point forming operation. This is where this particular bullet finished looking very good.
    Press cycle start again to finish last step.
    The cases are not trimmed full length being used.
    Point forming die is a truncated Cone Design.
    The finished bullet comes out looking as if the case opening was rolled inward. Looks like a hollow point but it's not.
    Cost to make about $0.03 each. The dies will pay for themselves at about 2000 rounds.
    Six step, optional, cannelure bullet.
    Follow these five or six simple steps for just about any caliber and you will have a quality finished bullet.
    Some more information to digest.
    Thank You

  4. #4
    Boolit Mold
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    Quick question,

    Do you leave in the fired primers to seal the primer pocket & flash hole?

    I have a old Corbin Silver press & a four die set for 45ACP.

    I've been planing on making some 185Gr jacketed bullets out of some of the extra 40 S&W brass I have.

    PS: I took a better look at the pricture of finished bullets posted by Kaydadog & got my answer!
    Last edited by bigmaico; 03-05-2018 at 09:12 AM.

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
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    The annealing step was what I was curious about. I have the Corbin swage dies and a WH press but am running somewhat low on jackets. Bought a CMMG PCC in .45acp and was wanting not to burn thru all my remaining store bought jackets.

    Elaborate, please, on the induction annealer... Seems like I saw something around here a while back on one but my memory is failing me.

    Thanks...

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy
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    I'll answer several of the questions.
    I always leave the primers in the case and only buy cases with the primers. If the primer is left out and the correct pressure is applied lead will bleed out the primer pocket. It takes quite a bit of pressure to fully expand the case. I'm not sure what the limitations of a hand press is. Based on my pressure readings it could easily take several tons of pressure to seat the core and fully expand the case. That's why annealing the case would be mandatory for a hand press. I maintain spreadsheets for every caliber and operation for pressure, punch depths etc. I can setup the next operation within minutes to get a 99% starting point.

    Just wanted to make a point if making 185/gr bullets. Based on my limited experience I think you will have to shorten the cases. There will not be enough lead to fill out 75% of the case. The finished nose will not come out looking good. At 230/gr the case is still not 100% filled. I was lucky using the Truncated Nose design the finished nose came out the way it did. No further operation before or after required.

    Concerning the induction annealer the ones that were listed on this forum were basic units. You would need an electrical background to figure out how you would make it work. Exact timing of the process down to 0.1/sec is required. If cycle is just 0.5-1.0/sec to long you'll have a melted case. It doesn't take long to melt brass if you have the correct annealer. My cycle times are around 6-7/sec depending on the caliber. This is where some trial and error is needed. Correct placement of the case in the induction coil to get the base fully annealed without melting the case mouth. To manually anneal each case would take a long time.

    I researched and invested in a Fluxeon annealer a very high quality and precise unit for the cost. You can look it up. The owner Garret was very helpful when I got started. He even went out of his way to send me additional tubing, fittings and material so I could test different coil designs to see what would work best. Never sent an invoice for payment.
    I took it one step further and fully integrated the Fluxeon unit in the project I built. It loads, indexes. locates and ejects the cases automatically, 300-350 an hour. With several hours of work I could have enough cases for over a year.

    Like the hydraulic press built these units are all PLC controlled. Machined all the required parts, drew the electrical schematics in CAD and programmed the PLC's all Allen Bradley. These were all fun projects since my background was in Elec/Engr, mechanical and hydraulics plus machining.

    I've always taken my hobbies seriously. My investment is higher but the finished projects are worth the results. Since I do 100% of the work my cost is only in components and material.

    It never ends but I think I have all the required projects done. Only need to make bullets.

    Thanks for the interest.

  7. #7
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    Here's another way to do it:



    These are .40 S&W cases into .44 bullets, but I've also made .45 caliber bullets with the same process. I don't trim my cases, but rather use the hollow pointing punch to roll the excess brass into the hollowpoint, similar to the Gold Dot bullets.

    I also anneal my cases with the cores installed, which results in bonded cores without the use of any flux. I avoid flux, since it's acid and I don't like taking my swaging dies apart to clean the flux out of them after every swaging session. I also anneal at a higher temperature, 1,125 degrees F. I let the cases and cores cool over night in the kiln, and they'll still be over 250 degrees F. after 12 hours of sitting in the kiln after it's turned off. I picked 1,125 degrees F. simply because that's what Starline uses to anneal their brass between case forming steps, and I figured they'd already done all the research to know what worked best.

    Here's a picture of my kiln and cases/cores:



    And another one after they've come out of the kiln:



    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy


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    Reloader Fred,

    Do you ever have issues with the lead shooting/popping out of the cases as you are annealing them? I haven't tried it in a kiln but did a few on a hot plate and torch and had them pop on me.

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy tiger762's Avatar
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    I'm curious about how well the 40SW brass swells out to a cylinder of 0.451" diameter? I used to swage 44cal from 40SW using a CH4D swage die set. Even with only the need to swage it out 0.007" bigger diameter, I still got a LOT of egg-shaped bullets. It was disappointing. I can't imagine how 0.423" would swell to 0.451".

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by guywitha3006 View Post
    Reloader Fred,

    Do you ever have issues with the lead shooting/popping out of the cases as you are annealing them? I haven't tried it in a kiln but did a few on a hot plate and torch and had them pop on me.
    guywitha3006,

    No, since they're heated slowly. I put my trays with cases and cores in before I turn on the kiln, as I have no desire to reach into a kiln at 1,125 degrees F.! You can see from the pictures that there's plenty of room for the cores to melt into the cases, and any air that had been in there would have escaped before it could become trapped. The same holds true if there had been any moisture, which I'm very careful to avoid.

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger762 View Post
    I'm curious about how well the 40SW brass swells out to a cylinder of 0.451" diameter? I used to swage 44cal from 40SW using a CH4D swage die set. Even with only the need to swage it out 0.007" bigger diameter, I still got a LOT of egg-shaped bullets. It was disappointing. I can't imagine how 0.423" would swell to 0.451".
    tiger762,

    A lot depends on how soft you've annealed your cases, and how much pressure you can apply when forming. I'm able to get the rims to swage out to .429" for .44 caliber bullets with my setup, which is the difficult part of using cases for jackets. It's more difficult to get the rims swaged out all the way when forming .451" diameter bullets, and I haven't tried to do that. I get the bases of the cases to swage out to .451", but just consider the rims the same as boat tail bullets, or bevel base cast bullets. They shoot pretty good, too...

    When I was making them before, I was using my tall Hollywood Senior in the swaging position, with the swaging bar in place. I've since bought a Corbin CSP-1 Swaging Press, but I'm not really sure it exerts that much more pressure than my Senior does.

    Here's a picture of my Senior, to give you an idea of the size of this press:



    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy
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    As I stated it takes a lot of pressure to fully expand a case, sometimes several tons. Using a hydraulic press the area of the case that can expand will expand. The rim or base of the case will never expand, it's a solid ring of brass. As ReloaderFred stated the bullet base will just act as a boattail design. Talking with Dave Corbin years ago he has stated the same. These bullets have a large bore riding surface area. The slight taper should have no affect on accuracy. Your not shooting a 44/cal or 45/ACP at a 100/yard target. All references made are for pistol calibers only not rifle.
    Thank You
    Last edited by KAYDADOG; 03-06-2018 at 02:15 PM. Reason: Update Reference.

  13. #13
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by KAYDADOG View Post
    Your not shooting a 44/cal or 45/ACP at a 100/yard target.
    Oh but I do shoot my 44 out to 100 yds regularly. Course, it's a Marlin lever gun, but still.................
    Mark

  14. #14
    Boolit Mold
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    Do you guys think that my Corbin Silver press will have enough pressure to expand the S&W 40 case to work as 45Acp jackets??
    Last edited by bigmaico; 03-08-2018 at 06:32 PM. Reason: Spelling

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger762 View Post
    I'm curious about how well the 40SW brass swells out to a cylinder of 0.451" diameter? I used to swage 44cal from 40SW using a CH4D swage die set. Even with only the need to swage it out 0.007" bigger diameter, I still got a LOT of egg-shaped bullets. It was disappointing. I can't imagine how 0.423" would swell to 0.451".
    I'd feel a lot happier with .44 Magnum cases for this or .45 rifle bullets. The only time I have done it (fair to middling results only, with my improvised die and workshop press) I cut and belt-sanded the case head flush with the front of the extractor groove. If the rim doesn't expand (true), can you count on it making exactly even contact with the rifling, or exactly the same air resistance, all the way around?

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReloaderFred View Post
    Also anneal my cases with the cores installed, which results in bonded cores without the use of any flux. I avoid flux, since it's acid and I don't like taking my swaging dies apart to clean the flux out of them after every swaging session.
    I believe a little powdered rosin would do as well, if everything is clean, and isn't corrosive. Alternatively boiling and drying them after bonding in the cores ought to remove traces of even acid flux.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ballistics in Scotland View Post
    I believe a little powdered rosin would do as well, if everything is clean, and isn't corrosive. Alternatively boiling and drying them after bonding in the cores ought to remove traces of even acid flux.
    That's probably true, but I stumbled onto this process by accident, and it works, without the addition of other materials, or the necessity of cleaning my dies after each use.

    Others may find the addition of flux fits into their regimen, but my process works for me, with the equipment I have, so I see no need to change it.

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
    After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master

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    I swage 300 grain .458 bullets out of the 40 S&W brass and have no problem getting them to size with a Rockchucker press using BT Sniper dies.

  19. #19
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    I've just been annealing and reducing small primer .45 ACP brass and using that. 40 S&W would be cheaper if I was buying brass to use, but I've got a LE buddy who provides me with a bunch of SP .45 brass every year.
    Nozombies.com Practical Zombie Survival

    Collecting .32 molds. Please let me know if you have one you don't need, cause I might "need" it!

  20. #20
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    I expand them after fully annealing them.

    Following thread has some good info on the process....

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...tep-die-review
    BTX Star Crimp Die
    Back in stock with new low price!
    Click link below!
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...Star-Crimp-Die


    also check in and say hello on my new face book page!
    https://www.facebook.com/BTSniper-153949954674572/

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check