1873 Werndl

[rmcc]

Does anybody out there have any experience with one of these?

[Dan Cash]

No, but would like to have. Friend who lives a ways south of me has a dandy carbine in super condition. The gun calls me every time I see this fellow but he won't let go.

[rmcc]

Reason I ask is there is one coming up for auction in a couple of weeks and I would like to own it (pending price, of course), but I know about less than zero about these guns. I have found that there were 2 different cartridges 11.15 x 42 and 11.15 x 58. No mention if one was cavalry or infantry. Looks like was changed due to improvements in action. By what I can find, you can get dies, brass, molds, etc. for the 11.15 x 58. Have not found anything on the shorter case length. Other thing was bullet diameter. 11.15mm is .439" by conversion. Some places, on youtube, called for a .451 paper patched bullet. So am getting more confused deeper I go.

thanks,
rmcc

[fivefang]

RMCC, werndl equipped Bavarian troops used to say : when it rains the Prussians can't shoot, but from what I understand is, one was the original ctg. the other was the re chambered, the original I understand was the reliable one, ( in Bavarian, wenns rengt , kennad Preissen ned schiesen), Fivefang

[sharps4590]

You will have to slug the bore, if you purchase the rifle. All the 11.15's I've read of and am familiar with have been all over the place. It isn't a difficult thing to overcome, one simply needs to be aware of it.

[toot]

i have one. got brass from BOB HAYLEY IN TEXAS. and shoot 58 cal. MINNIE balls in it using 27 grs, of 4198 with a cotton ball for filler or drier lint and shoot it. not a problem one. the load is a 45/70 light load. fills out the brass and no blow back smoke on the shell after firing. been using this load for 12 yrs, now.

[pworley1]

I have one that is chambered in the 11.5 x 58r. I use 11 mannlicher dies. I form brass from 348 winchester. the Lyman 445369 sized to 443 works good. You will have to slug yours to see if it was converted to 11.5 x 58r or not. If the price is fair I say get it.

[Jedman]

Attachment 215851I have a M 1873/77 that when I bought it the bore was bad and needed some work.
I rebarreled it to 45-70 which took some slight modifying of the action and reducing the rim diameter on the brass to load easy.
The stock on mine was cracked and split in several places and missing the cleaning Rod so I filled the channel for the Rod with a piece of walnut and fixed all the cracks with acraglas with brown die and glass bedded the barreled action and lock.
Also since my eyes are not good for iron sights So I added a extended eye relief rifle scope not a pistol scope.
It still is immediately identified as a Werndl but not in the traditional form I like it a lot , It shoots 405 gr. bullets into the same hole at 100 yards if you do your part as the trigger has not been worked on and it has a heavy pull weight.
When I rebuilt the action I replaced the axis pin that the drum pivots on with a part I made from O1 steel that is much larger / sturdier as the original was corroded badly and very loose so it needed replaced.

The overall design of the Werndl is really unique and quite strong. It can be fired quickly.. probably faster than a Trapdoor rifle and is every bit as good.

Jedman

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It is an unusual design, but an extremely good one, and very well made. I think the most likely problem to find would be cracked wood, due to the wide receiver. But I am sure it is much stronger than the Springfield, which can more accurately be compared with the Wanzl which the Werndl replaced.

The original 1867 Werndl had a conventionally designed lock, but here is mine, with the lockwork inside the plate. I don't know whether this came in with the 1873 or 1877 modifications:



Unfortunately my lock came without a rifle attached. But you can see how massive the internal parts are, and without little bridle screws etc. Besides more protection (for anything against which you might bump a Werndl rifle), it gives the firing-pin a better angle. I may use it if I ever get around to making my own break-open 8ga. or larger.

[rmcc]

After this, I can just about say I am going to own the rifle!!! B in S, is that a 3 or 2 position tumbler? I am not familiar with back action locks. Do you guys load only black or do you have a smokeless load for this rifle? I have been shooting 34 grs IMR 3031 with Lyman 457193, drops about 425 gr, through my Trapdoor. Mild load and shoots well.

Thanks for your help!!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I take it you mean is it a rebounding lock? No, the only positions are cocked, fully down and manually placed on an undercut half-cock notch. It would need to be put on half-cock before opening, both for safety and to stop the firing-pin engaging in the fired primer. If I was using the lock the way I considered, I believe I would have an underlever, rotating around a horizontal axis, which begins by lifting the hammer to half-cock.

[ascast]

yes, always confusing in the group. 11.15 is what you want. Length is not an issue, unless your a nerd. 348 is a drop in source case: blow them out,twice, and yer good to go.
0.439 is to book spec dia. and is correct. I have a bunch or orig ammo. BUT, that bullet was PP. Lyman makes a 446 which is ok RCBS makes the 448 which is better. Groove dia will run 451 or 2, maybe 3. but probably won't get them in the chamber. Really, bullet choice is limited by what you can cobble up to grip what size bullet. I use a LEE 11mm Mauser dies cut in half lengthwise and honed out to suit. OTC stuff is all made to 439 as that was what Barnes put in his book 50 odd years ago. If I get rich, I will have that 310 guy make me some neck size dies w/ matching expanders. keep us posted oh yeah Mine is my 1st or 2nd most fav rifle, and I own a few.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Frank Barnes's book was marvellous achievement, especially before they moved a lot of the most interesting old cartridges out into a CD "supplement", which was a bit like the left hand giving what the left hand had taken away. But books get things wrong, and copy them from one to another sometimes. I have 7.7x60R sporting straight-pull Mannlicher, which might have been very valuable if I hadn't restored it from a derelict barrelled action. But just about every book gives it a case length of 2.49in., and my chamber is 2.36in. Guess how long 60mm. is?

[rmcc]

I have 2 book copies. have not seen CD version but will be looking. Thanks for the heads up. Doing some research, Buffalo Arms has everything to load the cartridge although spendy!!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Don't just assume, without investigating the chamber, that it is an 11.15x42R or the 1873 11.4x50R. The 11.15x58R version came in 1877, but most of the rifles on hand were rechambered.

I approve of Buffalo Arms. I bought 24ga brass Magtech/CBC shotgun cases from them, for one of the most unusual uses to which anyone puts them nowadays: use in a 24ga shotgun. They are one of few US sellers prepared to act on the exemption of shotgun cases from the recent export restrictions on those for rifles and pistols.

In one way you would be fortunate if you do have an 11.4x50, for they can be made from the strong and (relatively) inexpensive .45-70 cases, probably with a few thousandths turned from the head diameter. The 11.15x42 probably can as well. If the chamber is tightly dimensioned, you could probably just let it expand, so long as you size in the right dies, and don't keep going down and up to the .45=70 head size. #but I would be happier wrapping the quarter inch or so in front of the rim with some adhesive copper tape. I have some which is made for people to frame and solder glass panels to make Tiffany-style lampshades, and some, rather wider, to keep slugs out of my strawberry pots. The 11.4x50 is even easier, for you can certainly get K&S 17/32in. OD tubing with ½in. ID, from a model-making shop or on eBay. Trap a shot collar of that with the case body expanded above it, and it will stay there forever.

Finally I have some 6.5x68R Schuler RWS cases (not all projects reach fruition), and the .520 head, if it didn't fit the 11.15x42R chamber, could easily and safely be reduced. It isn't cheap, but cheaper than Bertram or the like.

[rmcc]

I was told it was definitely the 11.15 x 58R, but I am assuming nothing!! Do you find it hard to get brass for your metric projects? If not for Buffalo Arms and a couple of others, we would be in deep doo-doo trying to come up with some of the off the wall stuff we see here!

rmcc

[Ballistics in Scotland]

RMCC, werndl equipped Bavarian troops used to say : when it rains the Prussians can't shoot, but from what I understand is, one was the original ctg. the other was the re chambered, the original I understand was the reliable one, ( in Bavarian, wenns rengt , kennad Preissen ned schiesen), Fivefang

I think that would have been in the brief period when the Bavarians had the metallic-cartridge Werndl and the Prussians still had the combustible-cased Dreyse needle gun. The latter was extremely old-fashioned by the standards of the late 1860s, being one of numerous forms of military technology in which the Prussians were outclassed by the French in 1870. Unfortunately strategy, tactics and logistics have to come into it somewhere.

Yes, some cases are hard to get in the UK, particularly since it is now impossible to buy them direct from US suppliers. If I ever needed to, I would look for a US forwarding firm with the necessary licence, but maybe there is a per-consignment fee which would make that impractical. We can get just about anything Bertram, probably at rather more than the US price. I have the cases for anything I can see myself continuing in the future, as well as odds and ends I am only likely to get around to if the human lifespan can be increased.

Sharps4590's advice about slugging the bore is important. With existing rifles being rechambered in service, it is quite possible that they may exist with a bore or twist not ideal for the new cartridge. By 1918 Austria-Hungary was desperate enough for anything good enough to equip a senior-citizen railway-siding guard. But that is something the handloader can easily deal with.

[rmcc]

I plan on slugging bore (contingent on getting it bought) and going from there. I keep some soft sheet lead back that I can shape into a ball to slug bores with. I don't know why this rifle intrigues me so, I have enough other projects going that I really don't need another one! Found a Trapdoor Springfield carbine that is within 174 of my serial # on my rifle. I am afraid it will have to be acquired!!

[skeettx]

For mine I use .348 Brass and .446 Cast bullets and 4198 powder
Mike

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I don't know why this rifle intrigues me so, I have enough other projects going that I really don't need another one! !

No more than enough? That sounds like a very neatly organised lifestyle. Still, there may be a hundred people around you who have made a trapdoor Springfield work, for every Werndl.