Ramblings from a recent believer

[dverna]

First the good news....

My faith continues to develop. My circumstances require me to attend two churches but since June I have missed less than handful of services. I do not view attending church as an obligation and look forward to seeing the new acquaintances I have made and the messages from the pastors. I have also started singing the hymns.

Although both churches offer Bible study, I stopped going to the one at the larger church. It was a group of men reading the Bible with little or no discussion of any depth....almost like the object was to read the Bible from cover to cover. At the smaller church, the Bible study is led by the pastor and there is a lot of thinking and discussion.

I look forward to celebrating my first Easter as a Christian with humbleness and awe of the sacrifice Jesus made for us.


Now the “bad” news.....

I continue to struggle with accepting 100% of what is in the Bible is true or reported factually. There is the issue of manuscripts that may have been translated poorly through human error....or worse yet, to convey whatever the translators adgenda may have been. Lastly, some manuscripts are not included in the Bible. Why?

Even in cases where the words are unambiguous, there is a tendency to frame the message to fit our PC viewpoint. For example, Ephesians 5:24 that “wives should submit to their husbands in everything”...or Genesis 3:16 “Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you”. Jesus accepts slavery. Parables that give us poor guidance in how we should interact with other men Etc etc

Genesis 1, 2, and 3 are riddled with holes for a questioning mind to contemplate.


As an atheist it was easy to pick apart a few sections and dismiss the whole. At this point in my faith, I accept there may be errors, but it would be stupid to ignore the Word due to a few inconsistencies that are clearly the fault of men. Men who are not only capable of making honest mistakes but sinners....as all of us are.

[koehn,jim]

I am glad you have found comfort and peace in church. I am also glad you question some things as this will cause you to examine it more closely. God is there to help us and look over us.

[popper]

Good for you. There are translations and transliterations which are different. Some texts were left out due to the inability to substantiate their source (book of Mary, Judas & others) and purpose. Some are left out as they are very 'cultist' abominations - even in Paul's day there were those who tried to change the Gospel. What we have as the Vulgate came primarily from some Scottish (?) monks as much was destroyed by the Emperor. Other than the 'letters' to churches the texts were written over an extended time as the Apostles wrote from memory along their journeys.

[Ickisrulz]

The Bible is filled with stumbling blocks for everyone. This includes the conquest of Canaan (including killing children), slavery, women under husbands' authority, prohibitions on sexual practices, animal sacrifices, Jesus' sacrifice, the concept of hell, etc.

I have concluded that the Bible is fully inspired, error-free and historical. When I find something hard to accept I figure there is a problem with my understanding rather than blaming the text. Usually I can successfully navigate a difficult passage with a little research.

For what it is worth...

You cannot find any passage of Scripture where Jesus or Paul accepted slavery as a reasonable institution. You will find in Paul's writing that a slave should accept freedom if available. There is a hint in Philemon that Paul would like a Christian master to free his slave. Jesus and Paul were not civil reformers such as Martin Luther King, Jr. The change Jesus calls for are in individual lives that go on to effect the world we live in (salt and light). Christians are to live godly lives in whatever circumstances they find themselves.

The divine intention for the family unit is that it be led by the husband. If you think about life in biblical times (and even before WW2), the man was the one who had more interaction with people and places outside the home. He was the farmer, the merchant or the soldier. That placed the husband in the position of being able to make better informed choices for the family. Even in today's American society, the husband is looked to by his family to make major decisions. Notice that the Bible does not suggest women in general are to be subject to men.

[dverna]

Notice that the Bible does not suggest women in general are to be subject to men.

That in a nutshell illustrates my challenge.... The two references in my post state that women are generally subject to men. Yet you see those passages differently. I am not trying to be obstinate but what seems obvious to me is interpreted differently by those who have studied the Bible in more depth.

[Ickisrulz]

That in a nutshell illustrates my challenge.... The two references in my post state that women are generally subject to men. Yet you see those passages differently. I am not trying to be obstinate but what seems obvious to me is interpreted differently by those who have studied the Bible in more depth.

The two references in your post specifically state a relationship between "wives and husbands"; with that exact wording. There is no way an honest person can take them to mean all women are subject to men. I know people have tried. All kinds of unbiblical ideas have originated with someone's unique take on the Bible.

[JBinMN]

In a hope to be helpful...

IMO, of course... You may have to realize that the Old Testament & the New Testament do not always "match" in the described laws & "trends" of the times covered. Just like modern times, there are current trends that do not reflect laws, & trends of older times even in as short a time as decades up to centuries. Keeping that in mind might help, as well as perhaps by writing down the questions you have, as you come across theses sorts of differences & possible contradictions, then ask someone better versed in the Bible ( and even more than one) to answer the questions, may also be worthwhile to help guide you, thru how others who are more experienced & learned, interpret the bible. Not much different than here where we can ask questions & receive guidance from others experience in the art of cast/reloading, etc..


G'Luck! with your attempts to improve in this area!

[DerekP Houston]

As an atheist it was easy to pick apart a few sections and dismiss the whole. At this point in my faith, I accept there may be errors, but it would be stupid to ignore the Word due to a few inconsistencies that are clearly the fault of men. Men who are not only capable of making honest mistakes but sinners....as all of us are.

Basically quoted my entire issue growing up in the faith as well, I've matured a bit and come back around to recognize the value. Don't disregard the word just due to bad translations. I also found the smaller church more comfortable and easier for me to get along in, better discussions and more active participation.

[Boaz]

Don I was interested in the theological aspect when I was younger . You had to actually read a book as the internet was a long way off . Having no formal education beyond high school I could not read the ancient languages of original 'manuscripts and had to rely on a confusing array interpretations by different theologians and there is no total agreement among them and there never will be .

I Have no problem with anyone delving into this area of study to build your relationship with our Lord . The theory's and desention will never cease . There is still controversy over the books that Paul provided . But I understand your curiosity .

I don't require proof of our existing bible . There have been two century's of scholars working to provide it . I consider it the word of GOD ... .

[Char-Gar]

First the good news....

My faith continues to develop. My circumstances require me to attend two churches but since June I have missed less than handful of services. I do not view attending church as an obligation and look forward to seeing the new acquaintances I have made and the messages from the pastors. I have also started singing the hymns.

Although both churches offer Bible study, I stopped going to the one at the larger church. It was a group of men reading the Bible with little or no discussion of any depth....almost like the object was to read the Bible from cover to cover. At the smaller church, the Bible study is led by the pastor and there is a lot of thinking and discussion.

I look forward to celebrating my first Easter as a Christian with humbleness and awe of the sacrifice Jesus made for us.


Now the “bad” news.....

I continue to struggle with accepting 100% of what is in the Bible is true or reported factually. There is the issue of manuscripts that may have been translated poorly through human error....or worse yet, to convey whatever the translators adgenda may have been. Lastly, some manuscripts are not included in the Bible. Why?

Even in cases where the words are unambiguous, there is a tendency to frame the message to fit our PC viewpoint. For example, Ephesians 5:24 that “wives should submit to their husbands in everything”...or Genesis 3:16 “Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you”. Jesus accepts slavery. Parables that give us poor guidance in how we should interact with other men Etc etc

Genesis 1, 2, and 3 are riddled with holes for a questioning mind to contemplate.


As an atheist it was easy to pick apart a few sections and dismiss the whole. At this point in my faith, I accept there may be errors, but it would be stupid to ignore the Word due to a few inconsistencies that are clearly the fault of men. Men who are not only capable of making honest mistakes but sinners....as all of us are.

I came to faith in Christ at age 28. I was a hard nosed lawyer who demanded proof of everything. The very first thing I had to settle was whether or not I was going to submit my life to Scripture. This is the reason I entered a conservative seminary was to be able to answer these questions for myself and not just accept what others told me "on faith".

After several years of learning and independent research I came to understand that the New Testament documents are indeed accurate and reliable. For a good short version of what I learned I would suggest reading " The New Testament Documents Are They Reliable" by F.F. Bruce.

Now as to translations; Every translation had it's share of problems in translating one language into another. Some are better than others, but all suffer from the difficulties of translation.

About translation agenda; I have only encountered one that had a discernible agenda. The original "Living Bible" which was a paraphrase and not a translation was chock full of denominational slant. Most of this has been corrected in later versions which were indeed translations. There are very few translators that intentional slant their work. The vast majority are trying to produce the most accurate and faithful translations they can. The very few that do not are easy to spot. I would suggest you acquire a copy of The Amplified Bible, which gives alternative meanings of words in parenthesis.

About Bible Study guides and material; Here you encounter slants and agendas of all kinds frequently. A serious Christian must learn the basics of how to study the Bible for themselves. This is not that hard and does not require formal education.

When I read your post, I see myself quite clearly. To question is a good thing and when you come to closure, your faith will be yours, hammered out on the anvil of reason. It will be unshakable.

[jmort]

This book blessed me greatly. Gave me even more faith in the Bible

HOW WE GOT THE BIBLE

From the Inside Flap
Find answers to key questions about the Bible.

How accurate are modern translations such as the New International Version and the New Revised Standard Version? Why does the Roman Catholic Bible have more books than most Protestant Bibles? How can we be sure that the Biblical message has been accurately preserved through the centuries? How We Got the Bible, after more than forty years, has become a classic source of answers for these and other questions on how the Bible has come down to us.

Now in this revised edition, you will find five new chapters covering the Septuagint, the Latin Vulgate, the Sinaitic Manuscript, the illuminated manuscripts, and more. Every chapter in this edition includes new material, followed by a brief summary and questions for discussion. Neil R. Lightfoot deals with technical issues in non-technical language, making this book a valuable tool for any reader.


Back flap

Neil R. Lightfoot (Ph.D., Duke University) serves as Frank Pack Distinguished Professor of New Testament at Abilene Christian University in Abilene, Texas. He is the author of several books, including Everyone's Guide to Hebrews. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

From the Back Cover
How old are the earliest biblical manuscripts?

How has the Bible been preserved and transmitted to us?

Why do we have so many different translations of the Bible?

How did early Christians decide which writings to include in the Bible?

A classic for more than forty years, How We Got the Bible provides well-researched, accessible answers to many questions like these. Learn about the first materials used to write down the words of Scripture. Uncover the facts of some of history's most fascinating archaeological discoveries. Travel through history, from Jerome to Tyndale and beyond, as Neil R. Lightfoot discusses the origin, transmission, and translation of the Bible.

Illustrations and review questions at the end of each chapter make this book ideal for either individual or group study. Concise and engaging, How We Got the Bible is a trusted resource for anyone who wants to know the story behind the most widely read book of all time.

Neil R. Lightfoot serves as Frank Pack Distinguished Professor of New Testament at Abilene Christian University in Abilene, Texas. He is the author of several books, including Everyone's Guide to Hebrews.

https://www.amazon.com/How-Got-Bible...VKA9PDSGD7F2ZQ

You will be blesed
I am an attorney as well, but that has zero to do with How We Got The Bible

[Wayne Smith]

Let me address one issue only. The passage you quoted from Ephesians is taken from a whole section that, in the Greek, is all one sentence. It starts in v.18 and goes through 6:4, I believe. It is premised on being 'filled with the Spirit' - the precondition for all the following to be possible. In v.22 the word "submit" does not even appear in the Greek, it is assumed from the previous - 'submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ'. Three examples of submission are given, wives to husbands, husbands to wives, and children to parents. Read this in context and it is clear that husbands have the more difficult challenge.

[histed]

deverna - everything here is quite valid. Good books suggested, good advice given. What I have to add is just this. Remember who you are NOW. You are a son in God's family, joint-heir with Jesus Christ and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. You are reading God's love letter to His children. Keep reading, keep digging, keep praying - let the Holy Spirit guide and enlighten you. I have learn, over the years, that God, through His Spirit, will lead His children if we seek in "in Spirit and in truth."

[Boaz]

deverna - everything here is quite valid. Good books suggested, good advice given. What I have to add is just this. Remember who you are NOW. You are a son in God's family, joint-heir with Jesus Christ and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. You are reading God's love letter to His children. Keep reading, keep digging, keep praying - let the Holy Spirit guide and enlighten you. I have learn, over the years, that God, through His Spirit, will lead His children if we seek in "in Spirit and in truth."

Great post histed .

[dverna]

Gentlemen thank you all.

And Char-gar, it was the New Testament that finially convinced me that God exists.

At times, I regret that I lived so long without the Lord in my life....and then realize He was always there but I was to proud and arrogant to acknowledge Him. His patience and grace is extraordinary.

[pmer]

One of the first bible terms I learned was from the gospels. How I should love God and hate the next thing. I learned that it meant to keep God first in my life and other things second.

I had some explaining to do when I told my wife that she was number two!

[EMC45]

dverna I am still so excited that you now believe. Keep growing and learning. It never stops. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

When I came to Christ I struggled with my interpretation of life, the world, relationships etc vs. what scripture said. I told the man who led me to Christ that there was still a good bit I didn't believe and couldn't reconcile. He told me to delve deep into the word and to pray for insight, discernment and understanding. I did and little by little my understanding grew as did my faith and reliance fully on God for everything.

[Bazoo]

I was thinking of you the other day, wondering how you was doing, as I remembered you had decided to become a christian. Glad you're doing well with it.

For me, there has been things have caused me to question my faith, or maybe more accurately to question why God allows things a certain way, and why I dont understand it. My wife being sick is one of the major things. I dont really have an answer for you other than you just have stick with it and ask for faith and remember Gods ways are not our ways.

[dverna]

EMC45, and Bazoo,

I know I can never understand everything or how God works. The man who helped me put it this way, "You are an engineer and understand physics and mathematics. God explaining everything to you would be like you trying to explain to a two year old how we launch rockets into orbit". That put things into perspective for me. My (our) minds are not able to comprehend the why. Maybe we will understand when we are sitting with the Lord and maybe not. We will know when we get there.

Bazoo, sorry that your wife is ill. I will pray for her and for the Lord to give you strength in your time of need.

[EMC45]

Just remember we are finite and He is infinite.