ADvertise hereTitan ReloadingRotoMetals2Inline Fabrication
Lee PrecisionMidSouth Shooters SupplyGraf & SonsStainLess Steel Media

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 45

Thread: Lee 358-158-RF in 9mm ???

  1. #1
    Boolit Man
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    135

    Lee 358-158-RF in 9mm ???

    I bought Lee 358-158-RF recently for my Ruger GP100 MC which seems to work great and will probably replace my Lyman 358446. Out of my alloy powder coated they run around 163-164gr sized to .3575. At the same time I started running into posts of people using heavy 160-165gr RN bullets in 9mm. Running subsonic 165gr in 9mm apparently creates really soft shooting gun as suggested by some so I was wondering if I could use this 358-158-RF in 9mm case.

    Just to see what that would look like so I loaded one dummy round. I was expecting bad bulge on the case since this projectile is so much longer and had to be seated so much deeper but it didnt. For some reason this buller design has little bit of a boat tail like design (not a GC shank) which helps in this case. Pulled bullets were still at .357 which is great. It was probably really close though since I had to use more force then usual when seating these. Since these were cast for up to mild 357s these are cast out of alloy thats about 12bhn and water dropped after powder coating so these are little bit harder which worked out great in this case as they didnt get swaged down.

    At first my rounds were sticking in the chamber I'm assuming they were right against rifling in my sig p320. Loaded to the top of the crimp grove and FCDed lightly I got them to chamber correctly without sticking. So its a close window to work as far as length is concerned but they appear to cycle fine now.

    Now of course is the matter of case volume, powder selection and pressure. This long bullet cuts down case volume considerably so here is where I need to be careful to make sure I dont cause bad pressure spikes. Since I still play around with many different loads I have more then couple pistol powders that might work here so I'm trying to figure out which one would work best.

    For pistol powders i have HP38, Titegroup, WSF, WST, Unique, HS6, Trail Boss. Trail boss and WST are out because I dont have enough case volume for those powders. I'm thinking HP38 or WSF might work well here. I'm afraid that TG (titegroup) might be prone to pressure spikes since it burns so quick but I know people used TG too with decent results. I would like to try HS6 or Unique but I dont think i have enough case space for those.

    So what do you guys think? Is this worth exploring?

    Pics vs my standard Lee 356-125-2R

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	164gr125gr.jpg 
Views:	60 
Size:	48.9 KB 
ID:	215550

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	164gr9mm.jpg 
Views:	65 
Size:	38.6 KB 
ID:	215551

  2. #2
    Moderator



    JonB_in_Glencoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Land of 10,000 Lakes
    Posts
    10,342
    As to reduced case capacity...
    I had a similar situation when loading heavy for caliber brass jacketed swaged bullets for 40 S&W.
    My bullets weighed 193gr.
    After lots of reading, I found AA#5 is quite dense (actually it was the most dense I could find in the burn rate area) and worked well in my reduced capacity 40.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master fredj338's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    kalif.
    Posts
    5,421
    Quote Originally Posted by marek313 View Post
    Now of course is the matter of case volume, powder selection and pressure. This long bullet cuts down case volume considerably so here is where I need to be careful to make sure I dont cause bad pressure spikes. Since I still play around with many different loads I have more then couple pistol powders that might work here so I'm trying to figure out which one would work best.

    For pistol powders i have HP38, Titegroup, WSF, WST, Unique, HS6, Trail Boss. Trail boss and WST are out because I dont have enough case volume for those powders. I'm thinking HP38 or WSF might work well here. I'm afraid that TG (titegroup) might be prone to pressure spikes since it burns so quick but I know people used TG too with decent results. I would like to try HS6 or Unique but I dont think i have enough case space for those.

    So what do you guys think? Is this worth exploring?

    Pics vs my standard Lee 356-125-2R

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	164gr125gr.jpg 
Views:	60 
Size:	48.9 KB 
ID:	215550

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	164gr9mm.jpg 
Views:	65 
Size:	38.6 KB 
ID:	215551
    That makes no sense. A smaller charge of faster powder will fit better in the smaller case. I have run 165gr RN from Xtreme with WST & RedDot. I just didn't like the slow slide speed in my 1911. In a g26 they are great, very soft shooting. WSF will work better than Unique, smaller volume per same charge wt.
    EVERY GOOD SHOOTER NEEDS TO BE A HANDLOADER.
    NRA Cert. Inst. Met. Reloading & Basic Pistol

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    St. Louis
    Posts
    489
    How much of the boolit is in the case? Ive loaded a 155 grain boolit in 9mm at 1.125 with 2.8-3.2 grains of red dot. 3.2 started flattening primers pretty good, but the 2.8 are fairly soft shooting and that boolit is still gettin down the road at a pretty decent speed. Maybe start at 2 grains and work up to 2.6, depending on the amount of boolit in the case. I am using a specially designed boolit for short lead/throat chambers tho. Use at your own risk, of course.

  5. #5
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Ames, Iowa
    Posts
    3
    I've been thinking about doing this for a subsonic 9mm load for the suppressor I don't have yet. I think it sounds like a great idea!

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    254
    I'd recommend just getting a 147g 9mm mold like the one from MP or Arsenal. A lot easier and less risky.

  7. #7

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
    FISH4BUGS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Inland from Seacoast New Hampshire
    Posts
    1,786
    I have always been told by my suppressor manufacturer that you should never put lead bullets through the can. I would suppose powder coated would be included in that too. If you are going subsonic to run them through a can, I would check with your manufacturer. If not using a can, it is an interesting experiment.
    Collector and shooter of guns with selector switches and threaded barrels. Collector of suppressors, SBR's, AOW's and SBS's. Lead and brass scrounger. Never too much brass, lead or components in inventory! Always looking to win beauty contests with my reloads.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    150
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...82#post4066682

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post3312499

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post4059017

    I'll quote myself because I am lazy. At this point I could have just typed it out and could have spent less time than looking for looking for my old posts and copy pasting lol

    "The Lee 158-RF is shorter than the plated hollow point in the article above, and I'm loading to a longer OAL than the article, so I KNOW I have more case capacity and less pressure."


    This quote is from before the shooting times article. "Use absolute caution with what I am about to tell you. I have sucessfully used the Lee 158-rf in 9mm loads. This bullet loaded at 1.07 has more internal case capacity than Lyman data for their 147 #356637. The Lyman data is the absolute deepest seated 147 data that I have come across. I started 20% lower than their starting data, with my shorter bullet loaded to a longer OAL." 356637 often weighs 155-158 gr in WW alloy.

    I am a big fan of these heavy bullets in the rifle. There is something special about shooting a 38 special bullet faster than any snubby, yet being quiet as a 22lr and being semi-auto mag fed.

    My main tip for accuracy and driving band swaging is to use a 38 S&W expander and PMC or R-P cases as they have a longer neck before the case walls begin to thicken.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master fredj338's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    kalif.
    Posts
    5,421
    More to it than case cap though. Measure the bearing surface of the 158, probably a bit longer. 158-165gr will work, you just have to go as long as possible in OAL & work up your loads carefully. IMO, 900fps is about all you are gonna get safely & there is little margin for error.
    EVERY GOOD SHOOTER NEEDS TO BE A HANDLOADER.
    NRA Cert. Inst. Met. Reloading & Basic Pistol

  11. #11
    Boolit Master rsrocket1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    1,025
    I've tried the calculations with Quickload before actually loading and shooting the same bullets. I believe you have to seat the bullets to 0.355" seating depth to reach the crimp groove on the 358-158-RF so that leaves a usable case capacity of about 0.345cc with the average 9mm case. A 105% filled volume (5% compression) of 3.3g Unique will give you 860 fps out of a 4" barrel with a peak pressure of 26,500 psi (safe) and a recoil similar to a 120g bullet at about 1100 fps. You can go lower but at some point you risk FTE's and failures to lock the slide back on the last shot because they are purely dependent on recoil (roughly bullet weight x muzzle velocity).

    If they feed and chamber properly in your gun I would start out with about 2.8g Unique and work up to 3.3g and see how they shoot. If the 2.8g load cycles the gun properly, you might work down 0.2g at a time until you start to get stovepipes or jams (this will happen long before you get a stuck bullet). My Lee bullets would not feed in my M&P 9 barrel so I simply got a 356-120-TC 6 cavity mold and never looked back.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    150
    rsrocket that is awful deep seated. 1.07" is about at the top of the middle driving band. You also won't find a brand of case that allows seating that deep without making the bottom driving band undersized.

  13. #13
    Boolit Man
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    135
    Quote Originally Posted by rsrocket1 View Post
    I've tried the calculations with Quickload before actually loading and shooting the same bullets. I believe you have to seat the bullets to 0.355" seating depth to reach the crimp groove on the 358-158-RF so that leaves a usable case capacity of about 0.345cc with the average 9mm case. A 105% filled volume (5% compression) of 3.3g Unique will give you 860 fps out of a 4" barrel with a peak pressure of 26,500 psi (safe) and a recoil similar to a 120g bullet at about 1100 fps. You can go lower but at some point you risk FTE's and failures to lock the slide back on the last shot because they are purely dependent on recoil (roughly bullet weight x muzzle velocity).

    If they feed and chamber properly in your gun I would start out with about 2.8g Unique and work up to 3.3g and see how they shoot. If the 2.8g load cycles the gun properly, you might work down 0.2g at a time until you start to get stovepipes or jams (this will happen long before you get a stuck bullet). My Lee bullets would not feed in my M&P 9 barrel so I simply got a 356-120-TC 6 cavity mold and never looked back.
    Thanks for sharing your Quickload info. Thats exactly what I was looking for. I wanted to make sure that I have enough case space available to load it safely without spiking pressure out of control. I was going to try it with HP38 / TiteGroup or Unique starting around 2.5gr and working my way up. I'm expecting stovepipes at 2.5gr but better start low. With so little case space available pressure could spike really quick I think.

    I'm going to try this but everything has to be just right for this to work correctly I think. I feel like there is some wiggle room in other loads but not here. Maybe its just me but better safe then sorry right.

    I really like my Lee 356-125-2R load with 4.0-4.2 of HP38 so I'm not sure why I'm really messing with this other then curiosity. Seems like I'm not the only one that thought of that though.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
    Tom W.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Phenix City, Alabama
    Posts
    2,550
    Anything new? I have the Lee 358-158 RF in a six cavity mold and nothing to shoot it out of. Sooo, I figure my CZ should handle it in moderate loadings. It's all steel.... But such a heavy bullet...
    Tom
    μολὼν λαβέ

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    VT
    Posts
    1,539
    I've shot the Lee 158 gr. SWC in 9mm–it works. Not brilliantly but OK.
    I would think the RF version will be similar. It will work in 9mm, as a relatively slow thumper. 2.5-3 grains of BE was what I was using. There is actually 158 gr. data to be found in some of the older manuals, I believe it maxed out at 3.5 gr. BE.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master scattershot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    868
    I like the looks of that flat nosed bullet. Keep us posted on how it works out.

    Good luck!
    "Experience is a series of non-fatal mistakes"


    Disarming is a mistake free people only get to make once...

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    Tom W.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Phenix City, Alabama
    Posts
    2,550
    I have plenty of BE...., plus Red and Green Dot. I load mostly for handguns...
    Tom
    μολὼν λαβέ

  18. #18
    Boolit Master rsrocket1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    1,025
    Quote Originally Posted by Boolseye View Post
    I've shot the Lee 158 gr. SWC in 9mm–it works. Not brilliantly but OK.
    I would think the RF version will be similar. It will work in 9mm, as a relatively slow thumper. 2.5-3 grains of BE was what I was using. There is actually 158 gr. data to be found in some of the older manuals, I believe it maxed out at 3.5 gr. BE.
    Did you get good ejections and reliable feeding? I have no reason to do this myself but I just may try it for the sake of satisfying my curiosity All my 358-158-RF's are already TL'ed so I'll have to cast up some more to powder coat. Thanks for the inspiration.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    VT
    Posts
    1,539
    I recall getting good functioning in my p226. This was the Lee TL358-158 SWC. Like you, I did it just to do it.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master rsrocket1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    1,025
    Well I found a couple of unloaded 358-158-RF's and tried making a couple of dummy rounds again. I had to seat to the crimp groove in order for the cartridge to have any chance of chambering in a 9mm gun. I sized the bullet to 0.356", seated to the crimp groove and it fit in the case gauge and in my 92fs and just barely in my Shield but it still would not fit in my XD9, M&P9 or M&P9c Storm Lake conversion barrel so it looks like it may be something doable, but extremely marginal.

    The toughest dimension to overcome is getting the fat part of the bullet body to seat short of the leade or rifling lands. You want the bullet seated as far out as possible to get some safety margin in case volume to keep the pressures from skyrocketing, but seating any further out than the crimp groove will prevent chambering in a lot of guns and even at that, it may not chamber in a short leade barrel.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check