1st Black Powder Cartridge Rifle, 45-120 Pedersoli Sharps

[West Texas Infidel]

Another thing to watch is velocity. Load for 1150-1250 fps with the heavies. the reason the lighter may have performed better is the shorter length of the bullet stabilizes faster and at lower velocities. Also the lighter bullets may be slightly faster with the same charge than the heavies.
I have a chronograph but haven't checked yet. Been loading between 105 and 110 so should have velocity enough.......I think
I would recommend a load work up with the bullet of choice. Start at no airspace no compression and work up in 2 grn increments only adding powder and the change in compression. When you find the best spots ( IE 100 grns and 102grns) test at the mid point between ( 101grns), once this is found then adjust seating depth to the best point.

It is better to compress the powder in a separate die than use the bullet ( these are normally soft lead and bend deform when compressing). Once the die is set for the bullet its set and compression is changed with the added powder. The use of a chronograph can tell you a lot when testing.
I have not been doing this
What are you using for wads? a heavy was something fairly stiff and around .060 thick with 1 or 2 thin wads. For the heavy wad LDPE, cork, Rubber fiber gasket material, and some other materials work well this wad seals the bore and protects the base of the bullet. the light thin wads can be newsprint, tracing paper or other thin light material 1 or 2 of these insure the heavy wad dosnt stick to the base of the bullet.
Using a .060 vegetable fibre over powder wad
Bullet alloy is normally 1-16 tin lead to 1-40 tin lead. these are soft alloies and do well swelling to seal the bore. a lot cast these pan lube and shoot as cast. ANother that can make or break you is the bullet lube you need a good black powder lube and enough to get thru the long barrel. If fouling is crusty feeling towards the end of the barrel or no lube star is present more lube may be needed. SPG is a good BP lube and a good one you can make is emmerts improved.
Possibly my lube. I have actually ordered what I need to make the recipe you listed here.
Emmerts improved recipe
50% beeswax
40% unsalted Crisco shortening
5% canola oil or olive oil ( I may make a small batch using Jo Joba oil here to see how that works)
5% anahydrous Lanolin

In a double boiler melt the beeswax Crisco and oil to liquid state and add the lanolin in stirring. I normally blend it for 5-7 mins and then let cool. the hardness can be adjusted with beeswax for harder or oil or Crisco for softer. This is a good lube that does well. A drop or 2 of murphies oil soap can be added to aid blending it

I appreciate the quick responses from both you and rfd. I've been reading everything I can find for 3 weeks hoping I could avoid bothering anyone with silly questions. I thought I had everything I needed to go shooting before the rifle even got here but I missed the bullet lube ingredients.......

Another thing, this rifle appears to have very shallow rifling.....is that normal for a Pedersoli? I guess I should slug the barrel and do a chamber cast and get some accurate measurements.

[bigbore52]

Welcome to the joys of a 45/120 WTI...... I've been shooting that same model as yours for few years now and it definitely prefers a heavy pill like the Postell.

I noticed in your piccie that you are using the Soule type sight....I ditched mine in favour of the Dr Goodwin which allows you to clean the bore without folding the sight back. Found that the Soule was a factor to me in accuracy because often it did not snap back into the correct position first up and depending on the eye hole used, can hit the ridge on the stock - particularly if the Hadley type. Test that out by using the open sights at 100 then try the same with multiple shots through the Soule....they are a great sight for distance no doubt but need to be carefully managed to get the best accuracy.....others will disagree no doubt but it worked for me...

I tried a variety of work up powder loads using various powders together with felt wads to remove air space but had accuracy issues also...just wasn't consistent...think I was a tad reticent to put a full charge in it as had heard the doomsayers (who incidentally had never fired one but like to offer comment all the same) all say it kicks like mule, and generally mess up your shoulder.....probably a bit of 'iron
envy'

Your loads appear to be a bit light on as I found early on when I started working it up...it's called the 120 for a reason as the old timers seemed to work out....so go with that - but you will need to make a compression plug or buy one so you can compress the 1.5 Swiss far enough down to fit a cardboard wad under a lubed pill.

I tried paper patching but was all over the place so ended up using the 458 postell which throws about 520gn on a 20:1 brew mix of lead and tin. No need to go harder cast than that though it will handle pure plumbum without the need for checks but you are tempting the fouling with that...best use a slightly harder.... I found there was no need to paper patch if you matched the pill to the bore

The barrels Pedersoli use are all match grade metal and plenty capable of handling whatever you stuff in it.

I started off with RCBS dies but switched over to the Lyman Cowboy sets as I was not happy with the quality of the RCBS dies....they were not polished internally and left marks on the cases - right from the get go - no such problems with the Lyman.....contrary to what others have suggested brass is readily available as Norma make it plus Bertram if you can get it in the US but am up to my 15th reload on Norma cases and only stuffed a few due to my errors....they are sold in bags of 50...I bought two three years ago and have not opened the second bag yet!

I've found the accuracy regime used from from a cold barrel, always use a blow tube after each shot and clean after every 3rd shot....leaving a slight oil film in it.......let the rifle cool between shots and at the range I just lube with Hoppes 9 on a mop after cleaning the bore.....

After the day's shooting I take the forewood off and pour boiling water from the kettle straight into the breach while the muzzle is sitting on a rag on the ground...you can hear when the water nears the top and just lift the gun up half an inch to flush out the crud out and stop the water from overfilling....do that a couple of times until the water comes out clear, because it's heated the gun up considerably, no need to worry about moisture so let the gun cool down and then oil it thoroughly....that way there's no need for solvents....

If you require more assistance can always drop me a PM - only too happy to help ........Lee

[West Texas Infidel]

Thanks for the reply Sir. I definitely need to make a compression plug. With 120 grains the powder will have to be compressed substantially. Have also considered patching 442's or 443's and loading them WAY out there Creedmore style. Right off I think I'd better get a proper lube made and go from there.

I am using Norma brass also. A little pricey perhaps but readily available and multiple feedbacks like yours indicate it lasts a long time. I am very pleased with it so far. I've been reloading 40 years and handloading 10 years so I'm not too confused on that process . I've also been shooting black powder muzzleloaders for 45 years so I am pretty knowledgeable on that front except with a muzzleloader the powder column is always exactly the right height.......compress as little or as much as you want with the same size wad LOL.

As far as recoil goes I just don't get that at all. I fired 20 rounds yesterday and 15 today off a bench rest and frankly it ain't nuthin but a good shove. A work related injury 8 years ago left me with a ruptured disk in my neck and it will let me know if my rifle is belting me too hard. I've been beat up a lot more with a 300 Weatherby in 3 shots than 20 with this rifle.

I'll get it eventually........I may not be very bright but I'm REAL stubborn.

Thanks again for your reply.......Pappy

[rfd]

just my personal opinion, but i would never ever use hot water to scrub out a barrel. not necessary at all and if so, there's really something else very amiss. plain tap water is all it takes to dissolve bp residue. since grease groove bullet shooters are either blowing or wiping 'tween shots, fouling shouldn't be an issue, but maybe leading is, which a totally dif'rent issue. after-shoot cleanup for me is water on patches, or water/balistol patches. dry off patches. light oil patch. but, to each their own, just saying there may be other folks with other processes that have worked well for near 60+ years when messing with black powder powered firearms.

[country gent]

First off, there are no silly questions.

A simple compression plug can be made from wood dowel aluminum or brass round stock. This worked well for me when I started.
for 45 caliber a piece of hardwood dowel 1/2" dia and 3" long can be worked in a drill press.
Chuck up dowel tight and with a file form nose duplicate your bullets profile as close as possible by eye. A gage can be cut from a 3X5 index card and used to see the spots it out. Take dia down to .450 or slip fit in case. Measure length of your bullet and cut long .010 or so. do this in a spinning chuck for a squarer cut. Leave "bullet" on shank with a small dia between for now. Mix a thin clear long cure epoxy and dip the wood bullet in it covering all surfaces. Hang this up and let soak in a drip down till cured. recheck and finish with sand paper. cut off. finish bottom to length by compressing a charge with the wood bullet and then measure OAL hand seat a bullet and measure OAL the difference is what needs to be removed. When done you seating die and this plug compress for the bullet as set up.

[West Texas Infidel]

Well had at it again today, got in early and the wind was not too bad. I had previously loaded 11 rounds with 4 different loads. 3 loads were with purchased pre-greased slugs and one was my cast 500 grain with a home made lube from wax, synthetic grease, crisco and rooster jacket as my supplies to make recommended lube had not arrived yet. I only had two of my cast bullets left that looked decent (thus the 11 rounds)

#1 530 grain postell bullet, 115 grains 1.5F. This one rolled my socks down a little bit and didn't do well, maybe 3 1/2"
#2 405 grain buffalo arms, 110 grains 1.5F, Two overlapping and one low right about 2 1/2" that I blame on myself.
#3 500 grain cast bullet, stout load of BH-209. Only two rounds and really overlapping this time.
#4 480 grain MP Smitzer, 115 grains 1.5F. Not awful considering the wind was picking up.

Not sure how the same bullet can go through the target sideways one day and shoot well another. Obviously had more velocity, different lube and different powder but past experience indicates that unstable bullets are usually a result of too slow twist for that particular design (then again, it was only two rounds). Of course most of my previous blackpowder experience is with muzzle loaders and round balls..........kinda hard to tell when they're going sideways

Felling much better today than I was after the last session. I have something to work with anyway. Hopefully I will burn some more powder this weekend.

[Lead pot]

My first Cartridge Sharps was the Pedersoli Quigley just like yours when Cabela's first stocked them. I liked this rifle and I still have it but Shooting it one day I had a hang fire and the Mag primers I was using back then pushed the bullet ahead before the charge went off and it rung the barrel. It now has a .45-90 barrel on it that was given to me.
But this is past history for the 120. The .45-3-1/3 chamber is a very good shooter if one can manage the recoil and for me it shot great. I used loads with 1F to 3F and all powder loads can be made to shoot very good in this rifle. You mentioned shallow grooves, this is a plus for the lead bullet cartridge rifles like we use. The deep grooves like your used to seeing with your front stuffers and mine are great for linen patched round balls were a 12 thousand and some times deeper grooves work well but not with the cartridge rifles. I like my grooves to be between .003" and .004" deep.
The Postell bullet should work well in your rifle even when they leave the barrel close to 1500 fps. It was the go to bullet for me with 118 grs. of 2F Goex before the express powder came out. There are a couple things I would look into with your rifle. You don't know for sure if this rifle was shot using jacketed Hornady bullets that I see some use around here with smokeless and when they try to shoot lead bullets they buy over the counter key hole and they give up using them and go back to using the 400 grain or less jacketed bullets with smokeless. I said to one guy clean out the copper smear in your bore and it will settle down and shoot lead bullets. I found this out shooting my old Eddy when I shot cast bullets in it when I first got it as well as the 03-A-3. clean out the copper and it will shoot a cast.
I don't know if this is your case or not but I would run a couple patches with copper fouling remover and see if they come out green.
The other thing I would do is really clean the bore with tight patches soaked with a good penetration oil I like KR-Oil or pure turpentine. This will pull the lead out with a very tight patch and a little work. When the bore is clean and the bullet base is good the rifle will shoot. If your dry patches come out looking gray after you think the bore is clean you still have lead smears in it that need to come out.
Your lighter 405 and 480 grain bullets might be to short for this rifle load your using, there were to light in my rifle and the accuracy suffered from the higher velocity they were pushed. I had Steve Brooks make a custom 5 groove creedmoor nosed bullet that weight around 580 gr, cant remember the weight for sure. This really woke up this rifles accuracy.
Use a good wad stack under that Postell bullet to seal the gas from cutting the bullets bases. This is what might also be making the key holing your seeing. Use at least a .060" wad and even a milk carton under the bullet and clean off the lube that might be on the base of the bullet.
If your full length sizing your cases flair the case mouth so it don't shave off lead when you seat it.
Work up what I call a ladder load. A ladder load is a load starting with no compression with rounds with the bullet and wads right on the powder. Increase the powder one or two grains and compress it with your wad stack and compression die. Do this till you compress the powder around .300" if your using regular goex. Swiss or Olde Eynsford you will see good results with in .200" compression.
Usually with three rounds each with 2 grains increase in your loads you will see what is close to what your looking for. Very seldom will it go with more then 21 rounds fired when you will see what needs just a little more tweaking to get the most out of it.
And don't use a roll crimp!! if you want a tighter fit use a taper crimp.
Kurt

[West Texas Infidel]

Lead pot,

Thanks for the response. I had actually cleaned the bejesus out of this thing as you had suggested thinking there may have been some lead left in the bore. I used kroil also (I love this stuff, half penetrating oil half magic). All the black powder loads had a .060 wad and the BH-209 load had of course a wad and filler. On my next trip I will try probably just load the 500 grain bullets (mine weigh 507 actually) with several different kinds of powder to see which has the best potential, then pick a powder and run a ladder test. I'm really hoping to use these bullets because; (1) I make them myself and (2) they have a very nice BC of .443.

As luck would have it the ingredients I had ordered to make lube was at the house when I returned from the range. The one I had made with other products appears to have worked well, so I suppose I have something else to mess with too

I'm going to make new innards on the lathe for my Lee expander die to use as a powder compression die. I also need to make a range tool for de-priming. Right now I have the primer punch in my sizing die run all the way down and the die backed out as far as I can and still knock out primers. I do bell the cases ever so slightly just so I can start the bullets by hand. I do not crimp but I have the seating die set so it just irons out the bell.

Thanks again for your help

[Lead pot]

Well your doing the right thing.
Let me ask you this, Does your rifle have a cylinder freebore ? My early pedersoli Quigley had a .425" free bore that gave me fits till I worked out a bullet that fit the throat. It took a groove diameter PP bullet to get full potential with the free bore throat and a GG bullet that did not have a reduced bore riding ogive.
Kurt

[Don McDowell]

If you could find a can of 1f powder locally it may prove to be a bit better in that long case.
If that's one of the early rifles with the throat they copied from the Farmingdale sharps, getting your bullets up to .460-.462 diameter may also prove helpful in the accuracy dept. If you dive off onto the paper patch trail bullets at .450 diameter before wrapping with 9 lb or slightly heavier paper will be a good starting point.
Casting bullets out of some 16-1 or similar hard alloy helps keep the bullet from getting so buggered up when that heavy charge of powder goes off as well.

[rfd]

... I do bell the cases ever so slightly just so I can start the bullets by hand. I do not crimp but I have the seating die set so it just irons out the bell.

imho ... fire form the brass and don't resize/expand at all. if the brass is new, or new to yer gun's chamber, expand it with a .461 straight expander (BACO) in a lyman or redding neck expander die body for a "faux fire form" of the case mouth, then begin the cartridge build. you'd want the greaser to push into the charged and wadded case, the best neck tension is none at all. at least initially set the OAL slightly less than max - adjust the powder and/or wads to create that OAL. figuring out that OAL can better be done by first straight wall expanding the brass, pressing in a spent primer, then experiment with weighed (not measured) drop tubed powder (for compaction), wad(s), pushed in bullets (another plus for using fire formed brass, the ease of both building and taking apart). push in a wad(s) with a dowel to seat on the powder to eliminate air space inside the cartridge and deal with any serious powder compression later. when loading, orient the cartridge head in the chamber for consistency (with my starline brass, it's always "stars up"). the bullet itself will be key and without delving into knowing about chamber, throat, bore and groove spex, a .459" 1:20 alloy @ 500+ grains should do for starters. the quality of the bullet is to a great degree in the quality of the mould, and that will be in the $150-$250 range as new, but a lyman postel is at least decent. as to sizing the bullet, that depends on how it'll drop and how it'll fit the rifling grooves. for the most part, no sizing should be initially required. bullet grooves can be lubed by simply rubbing a good lube (SPG, gato feo, etc) into those grooves, or go through pan or dip lubing.

you look at a bpcr sharps, roller, whatever - and think how simple can it be, and ditto's for the cartridge. "simple" - yes, but that's just for starters, for some folks.

[West Texas Infidel]

Should have posted this a couple days ago....work keeps interfering with my fun. Have received some excellent advise from a very wise man who has literally sent a ton of lead downrange with Sharps rifles. Olde Eynsford 1 1/2 and 535 grain Postell (these are store bought boolits but my mold is on the way). Got it down to about 3" but at least all the pointy ends are going through the target first.

[rfd]

good job. accuracy improvements are always exciting and encouraging!

[West Texas Infidel]

Okay, we're having a happening now. I think I peed down my leg a little when I walked up on this one . Haven't shot a group like this with peep sights in 30 years.

[sass2924]

Fouling control is important. Wipe the bore or swab after every shot.

[indian joe]

Fouling control is important. Wipe the bore or swab after every shot.

Fouling control IS important (I reckon that might have been the problem at the start) clean it between shots is the way to find out IF that is the problem - SHOULD then be able to graduate to shooting decent groups with a blow tube and a boolit with a decent lube load - do not load a grease boolit unless the lube grooves are full evenly all round the boolit (yeah its tempting just a little bit of a space there on one groove NO! fill the thing up neat) - early lube mix had synthetic oil in it?? - some times that works with blackpowder mostly it is a recipe for disaster - easier to steer way clear of any thing from the auto shop.

[rfd]

the most consistent between shot fouling control is to swab the bore at least twice - once with a plain water soaked patch on a jag, and then do it again with a dry patch. you wanna make sure the chamber is dry and some shooters also use a short dowel with a slit for a dry patch, just for the chamber, as a third wiping step.

more effective and faster than multiple patched jag swabbing is to use a single bore wiper/gopher/pig. i use BACO bore wipers soaked in, yup, plain ol' tap water - there is no need for anything else to dissolve black powder ... unless it's been baked on through negligent misuse (a big mistake - treat yer guns right and they'll treat you right).

the only black powder barrel after-shoot cleaning concoction i'll use is a water soluble oil added to plain water for a 1:6 mix. gun cleaning is only done with straight up water soluble oil (i use ballistol) - good for the metal, good for the wood.

[indian joe]

the most consistent between shot fouling control is to swab the bore at least twice - once with a plain water soaked patch on a jag, and then do it again with a dry patch. you wanna make sure the chamber is dry and some shooters also use a short dowel with a slit for a dry patch, just for the chamber, as a third wiping step.

more effective and faster than multiple patched jag swabbing is to use a single bore wiper/gopher/pig. i use BACO bore wipers soaked in, yup, plain ol' tap water - there is no need for anything else to dissolve black powder ... unless it's been baked on through negligent misuse (a big mistake - treat yer guns right and they'll treat you right).

the only black powder barrel after-shoot cleaning concoction i'll use is a water soluble oil added to plain water for a 1:6 mix. gun cleaning is only done with straight up water soluble oil (i use ballistol) - good for the metal, good for the wood.

I know you are right with a lot of this - agree fully on using water to clean -
I am off to a shoot this morning (Easter Weekend) Monday we shoot a 500yard match (long range facilities in this country are severely restricted) I just do not have the patience to follow your method - last year I did ok in this match - 4th I think - winner shot a possible with a five thousand dollar outfit and all the paraphenalia that goes with it - he scrubbed his new fangled target gun between shots - but by time he got his second or third shot off the mob of buffalo woulda grazed themselves right out of range. Second place - two points away - got my admiration - he took his position with an older pedersoli - box of ammo - blowtube - let his string go at a nice even pace - a rifleman!
Clean between shots (and paper patch) has a slight edge over shootin a string with a lube boolit and blowtube - but there are a lot of guys out there still - cleaning between shots beacuse they have to do it - they have not yet spent the time and thought sorting out a grease boolit load that will work - kinda sad really.

[rfd]

I know you are right with a lot of this - agree fully on using water to clean -
I am off to a shoot this morning (Easter Weekend) Monday we shoot a 500yard match (long range facilities in this country are severely restricted) I just do not have the patience to follow your method - last year I did ok in this match - 4th I think - winner shot a possible with a five thousand dollar outfit and all the paraphenalia that goes with it - he scrubbed his new fangled target gun between shots - but by time he got his second or third shot off the mob of buffalo woulda grazed themselves right out of range. Second place - two points away - got my admiration - he took his position with an older pedersoli - box of ammo - blowtube - let his string go at a nice even pace - a rifleman!
Clean between shots (and paper patch) has a slight edge over shootin a string with a lube boolit and blowtube - but there are a lot of guys out there still - cleaning between shots beacuse they have to do it - they have not yet spent the time and thought sorting out a grease boolit load that will work - kinda sad really.

IF i was using greasers i would definitely be using a blow tube, but since i only load 'n' shoot ppb's i vastly prefer a bore wiper. it works with one stroke - push in the bore wiper past the chamber, center a dry patch and push it all out the muzzle and into a pan of water. i use a patch popper and the entire fouling control is quite fast, actually about as fast as proper blow tubing, some times faster than the guy on the shooting line next me blow tubing.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

some talk here re blowing and wiping.
both require more understanding and establishment of technique than at first glance.
there would be more good loads missed due to incorrect wiping or blowing than any other reason.
the bigger the powder charge, the more complicated this gets.
for sheer accuracy, nothing beats wiping done properly, as it is the easiest way to get a consistent bore condition
get the barrel absolutely clean each time.
when working up loads, it is worth taking the time to do this.
then if you want to blow, work on technique with this load trying to reach the accuracy when wiping.
things that affect blowing are humidity, air temp, barrel temp, compression, ammount of powder, ammount and type of lube.
you might need to increase the number of blows as the barrel heats up.
correct lube combines with water in breath to make a soap which when moist lubricates the barrel for the next bullet, as well as allowing the bullet to sweep out the fouling.
when things get too hot and dry this process cannot happen any more.
wiping sweeps out the fouling first.
in many cases, some mousture left in the barrel can help.
one such situation is with bore riding noses.
these bump into the rifling and have no lube on them, leaving lead in the barrel.
a thin film of wiping flud containing oil (cutting oil) can lubricate enough to get bore riding noses down the barrel with success.
moist wiping cloths can do this if not too wet or too dry.
the second moist cloth pulled back and then pushed out will clean the front of the rifling as well as the back.
there are now such things as bore pigs and felts to aid in this process.
the 3 1/4" case uses a lot of powder, leaving more fouling and more barrel heat than say the 2.1" case.
coming to grips with consistent barrel condition shot to shot is time well spent.
keep safe,
bruce.